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Morality in Code Geass?
Code Geass presents us with a diverse set of characters with opposing moral standpoints. Lelouch, in his determination to destroy the Empire of Britannia, is willing to use any means necessary at his disposal to do so.
On the otherhand Suzaku, Lelouch's polar opposite, believes only by changing the Empire from within can it be cured of its current cruel ways. While the former is presented as morally grey, the latter is presented as whiter than white. However the show leaves us, the audience, to decide on whether the Lelouch's actions are right or wrong.
When posting please Consider also the politics of Britannia and its Emperor, who actively encourages inequality and rivalry - even amongst his own children. The Emperor seeks to propel Britannia to even greater heights through military might. How has the politics of Britannia, and those who oppose it, influenced the actions and decisions of the characters?
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"Would it not be strange if a universe without purpose
accidentally created humans who are so obsessed with purpose?"
1 year 6 months ago
I think the ends do justify the means. But i wouldn't say that Lelouch is completely ruthless.
I think its a differnte answer for everbody,
becuase is a matter of perspective.
No matter how much you try to prove the opposite of YES and NO to end justify the means. A good argument will come, so it’s a matter of choice you are.
I choose YES
becuase is a matter of perspective.
No matter how much you try to prove the opposite of YES and NO to end justify the means. A good argument will come, so it’s a matter of choice you are.
I choose YES
First of all, what mean by 'morality'? We should think about the following points, they are something can conclude as 'morality' but not the all.
-To protect love, such as friend, lover and family
-Do not hurt others, especially good people
-The behavior will not let himself/herself feels guilty
Etc...
But how about when we must make a choice between the first two points? Which choice can be marked as 'morality'?
A quotation from Kallen: Who can design whether someone is right or wrong?
Actually, no one can design that. Everything can have a two-side view, it is designed by our knowledge, feeling and many other things we had meet. A good deed can come from a bad intention, a bad deed can come from a good intention.
"世界は絶対的悪ない、世界は絶対的善ない"
The world has not absolute badness or absolute beneficence.
It is the absolute rule of the world. We cannot say the characters are good people or bad people, only themselves can think about that by thinking what they have done.
Thurs, I think if someone need not feels guilty about his/her behavior, he/she do not harm his/her view of 'morality', it is morality, no matter he/she is killing people to save someone.
Sorry for my poor English, I come from Hong Kong, Traditional Chinese is my mother tough.
-To protect love, such as friend, lover and family
-Do not hurt others, especially good people
-The behavior will not let himself/herself feels guilty
Etc...
But how about when we must make a choice between the first two points? Which choice can be marked as 'morality'?
A quotation from Kallen: Who can design whether someone is right or wrong?
Actually, no one can design that. Everything can have a two-side view, it is designed by our knowledge, feeling and many other things we had meet. A good deed can come from a bad intention, a bad deed can come from a good intention.
"世界は絶対的悪ない、世界は絶対的善ない"
The world has not absolute badness or absolute beneficence.
It is the absolute rule of the world. We cannot say the characters are good people or bad people, only themselves can think about that by thinking what they have done.
Thurs, I think if someone need not feels guilty about his/her behavior, he/she do not harm his/her view of 'morality', it is morality, no matter he/she is killing people to save someone.
Sorry for my poor English, I come from Hong Kong, Traditional Chinese is my mother tough.
1 year 6 months ago
That's a really complicated topic, weaver. I need to ask, is this thread taking whats been shown in R2 so far into account? Just to be sure...I'll spoiler tag the rest of this.
SPOILER (click to view)
The ends can justify the means.
Morality is merely a point of view.
But in CG, aren't both Suzaku and Lelouch utilitarians?
Morality is merely a point of view.
But in CG, aren't both Suzaku and Lelouch utilitarians?
SPOILER (click to view)
It will depend on how the individual is affected by the circumstances...this is how the person will handle the problem.
example:
Lelouch felt that everything in his life is broken: nana got physical problem, his mother's death and others that affects him to do evil in that level
Suzaku on the other hand has personal problem that he can handle because it was HIM in the first place who killed his father but when his soon to be girlfriend died in the hand of zero he lost control of his consciousness. He was able to forget his principle.
example:
Lelouch felt that everything in his life is broken: nana got physical problem, his mother's death and others that affects him to do evil in that level
Suzaku on the other hand has personal problem that he can handle because it was HIM in the first place who killed his father but when his soon to be girlfriend died in the hand of zero he lost control of his consciousness. He was able to forget his principle.
When you come to manipulate that many persons, what we call MORALITY get comlpicated and complicated, becuase of the different perspectives.
In the end you always will finish doing hurting or doing something that someones dislike, SO... ICED HEART decision will come, SPECIALLY when it comes to revolutions o revolutions
In the end you always will finish doing hurting or doing something that someones dislike, SO... ICED HEART decision will come, SPECIALLY when it comes to revolutions o revolutions
RokasomeeThe ends can justify the means. Morality is merely a point of view. But in CG, aren't both Suzaku and Lelouch utilitarians?
1 year 6 months ago
I'm spanish, but I don't speak English very good.
In spanish:
A mí me parece que este es un Shonen que va algo mas que a las peleas. Tiene una historia increíble, y unos personajes con una grand personalidad
In spanish:
A mí me parece que este es un Shonen que va algo mas que a las peleas. Tiene una historia increíble, y unos personajes con una grand personalidad
If I remember back to my RE class last year, morals are what we personaly live by.
A person with high morals will not degrade themselves like a person with low morals might.
Both Lulu and Suzaku are extremely selfish. Lulu's using the OotBK to create his own perfect dictatorship, and Suzaku sold out his best friend to further his status in Britanian society in order to achieve his own goals.
I have never believed that the ends justify the means; that's just a pretty way of hiding the fact that you've done horrible things. Just because Lulu overthrows the Emperor, or Suzaku changed Britannia from the inside, does not excuse them of the horrible things they've done to achieve that.
Does Suzaku, who killed his own father in order to stop fighting in Japan, believe that the ends justified the means? His entire character- his need to prove that he is a good person, his need to throw himself into harms way so that if he died it would be protecting someone; all of this has come from that one moment when he killed his father. The ends (relative peace in Japan) did not justify the means; if they had, Suzaku wouldn't have been trying to prove to the world that he was a 'good' and 'nice' person. He needed something more to justify what he had done.
R2 episode 7
Me, with my black-and-white view of things, and my extremely tired mind that can't be bothered to take into acount other factors (Nunally, Japan, etc.) would end up saying that both Lulu and Suzaku have far from high moral standards. The actions they take to achieve their goals give evidence to that.
Woah, what an essay xD I think I'll stop here. This post is probably loaded with inconsistancies, but meh. Too tired to care right now xD
A person with high morals will not degrade themselves like a person with low morals might.
Both Lulu and Suzaku are extremely selfish. Lulu's using the OotBK to create his own perfect dictatorship, and Suzaku sold out his best friend to further his status in Britanian society in order to achieve his own goals.
I have never believed that the ends justify the means; that's just a pretty way of hiding the fact that you've done horrible things. Just because Lulu overthrows the Emperor, or Suzaku changed Britannia from the inside, does not excuse them of the horrible things they've done to achieve that.
Does Suzaku, who killed his own father in order to stop fighting in Japan, believe that the ends justified the means? His entire character- his need to prove that he is a good person, his need to throw himself into harms way so that if he died it would be protecting someone; all of this has come from that one moment when he killed his father. The ends (relative peace in Japan) did not justify the means; if they had, Suzaku wouldn't have been trying to prove to the world that he was a 'good' and 'nice' person. He needed something more to justify what he had done.
R2 episode 7
SPOILER (click to view)
Me, with my black-and-white view of things, and my extremely tired mind that can't be bothered to take into acount other factors (Nunally, Japan, etc.) would end up saying that both Lulu and Suzaku have far from high moral standards. The actions they take to achieve their goals give evidence to that.
Woah, what an essay xD I think I'll stop here. This post is probably loaded with inconsistancies, but meh. Too tired to care right now xD
1 year 6 months ago
Drive of humanity, oh how people & how far they go to do such things.
Morally, I think it's like fighting fire with bigger fires. People are trying to do good, but good turns to bad so easily, that everyone's doing what totally opposes what they want in the world because of how they feel.
(Oh how complicated my explanations are & how they don't make sense, I wish I could fix that, but I can't find better ways to describe things)
Morally, I think it's like fighting fire with bigger fires. People are trying to do good, but good turns to bad so easily, that everyone's doing what totally opposes what they want in the world because of how they feel.
(Oh how complicated my explanations are & how they don't make sense, I wish I could fix that, but I can't find better ways to describe things)
1 year 5 months ago
I would venture to say that neither are Justified. Both Lulu and Suzaku are indeed selfish. Lulu would use almost anyone to reach his goal. Suzaku, I believe had the right intentions until Euphemia died. He lost his sense of morals when that happened. If Euphemia hadn't died I don't think Suzaku would have resorted to handing over Lulu to further his status. I think that in Lulu's case as well he started out with Something that was right. As the series progresses in the first season each of them gets more desperate to win and will do anything to further their cause.
1 year 5 months ago
Perhaps if Lelouch did not despise his father, he might have joined the empire like Suzaku but that is not the case.
Taking advantage of his new found power, it opened the way for Lelouch to finally pave a way for peace by bringing down the empire (his father). He saw them as evil and so he thought his actions were right to make.
Suzaku saw the fall of Japan as established and permanent and sought a peaceful means as DragonPhoenix mentioned, and a desired result from killing his father.
I think that both characters have slightly differing goals with Suzaku wanting peace and Lelouch wanting justice over the death of his mother.
The means, I find, would have to be seen as the best option to take with both characters. It is unfortunate that Lelouch had used the Japanese as a tool but as we see later, whether or not it was his main intention, he frees the Japanese from the Britannian Empire, perhaps as a final generous act. One could say his means were justified if his actions were of good intention but we do not know what he is thinking.
Suzaku has on the other hand, taken no action in attempting to bring peace between the Japanese and britannian empire, hoping that the Japanese would see him as a role model and stop the violence, but they are still treated the same, as eleven's. As some of you have said, Suzaku is only doing this as redemption for killing his father so has blinded himself from the reality that his people will never be recognized. Nunnally does not know the truth behind her mother's death and ignorantly attempts to bring peace, the same way Euphemia tried to as well, both proposing a solution that Lelouch thinks will not work due to his father having ultimate control over everyone.
It really depends on their circumstances and goals and how much of the truth each and everyone of them knows and the violent ways Lelouch is taking, with death being what the Britannian Empire deserves, is justified.
Taking advantage of his new found power, it opened the way for Lelouch to finally pave a way for peace by bringing down the empire (his father). He saw them as evil and so he thought his actions were right to make.
Suzaku saw the fall of Japan as established and permanent and sought a peaceful means as DragonPhoenix mentioned, and a desired result from killing his father.
I think that both characters have slightly differing goals with Suzaku wanting peace and Lelouch wanting justice over the death of his mother.
The means, I find, would have to be seen as the best option to take with both characters. It is unfortunate that Lelouch had used the Japanese as a tool but as we see later, whether or not it was his main intention, he frees the Japanese from the Britannian Empire, perhaps as a final generous act. One could say his means were justified if his actions were of good intention but we do not know what he is thinking.
Suzaku has on the other hand, taken no action in attempting to bring peace between the Japanese and britannian empire, hoping that the Japanese would see him as a role model and stop the violence, but they are still treated the same, as eleven's. As some of you have said, Suzaku is only doing this as redemption for killing his father so has blinded himself from the reality that his people will never be recognized. Nunnally does not know the truth behind her mother's death and ignorantly attempts to bring peace, the same way Euphemia tried to as well, both proposing a solution that Lelouch thinks will not work due to his father having ultimate control over everyone.
It really depends on their circumstances and goals and how much of the truth each and everyone of them knows and the violent ways Lelouch is taking, with death being what the Britannian Empire deserves, is justified.
Morals are lessons that are learned from a story or past experiences, hence, everyone's morals will differ. What I believe is right might be completely different from someone else, or it may not.
As for does the end justify the mean? I believe it's like history, it is written by the winners and from their perspective. If Lelouch succeeds and defeats Britainia, then Zero would be seen as a hero by nearly everyone in the world. If Britainia wins, he would be seen as a terrorist who tried to destroy the peace that they have established.
As for does the end justify the mean? I believe it's like history, it is written by the winners and from their perspective. If Lelouch succeeds and defeats Britainia, then Zero would be seen as a hero by nearly everyone in the world. If Britainia wins, he would be seen as a terrorist who tried to destroy the peace that they have established.
1 year 5 months ago
I really don't think the end justfies the means. After all what if along the way you lose someone important like with Lelouch and Euphie.