All ways remember that destruction leads to creation and out of war comes peace

@hunter well since you said you want ot invade my coumtry it must mean that oyu want to do that for either the land or resources that my country have so nukeing it would make the land and resources will be useless so in actuality the best way is ot move all your tanks battleships and forces right at my border under te desguise that its a training excersice and 5 sec laters invade with an all out blitz worked really well for the germans during WW2 it will bring morale down and major casultys on my side that would actually be the best way with fast results that achives what you whant

@ bebop : eeerm, am sorry, but I don't watch anime in the hope of seeing hot girl characters with exagerating anatomy, i would watch porn movies if i needed that, i watch anime, hoping
1. the story is kinda logical even close to it, if it's sci fi or imaginary (non-reality) based
2.to have a deep meaning or deep reflection of something real
3.to have a good visual, we are in 2008, we can at least have the right for non lazy work
4.plot twist, who doesn't like them
so, Kallen, supportive you say, hmm maybe, mind you detail in how many ways she's been a supportive character, putting away, her skills riding the mecha, and kissing and falling onto Lelouch, how was she supportive?

about Susaku, 1st, man, replying like this makes me want to tell you many horrible things, not because you insulted Susaku, that i don't care, but you replied (sorry i tried to hold myself) like a child, because, "1.nothing is unique about him" you killed your father too?? you lost your love too? "2.takes revenge on the most stereotypical and overrated" i'd like to see a saint here who would be like "oh yay, i lost the only girl who loved me, awesome, how about losing other people in my life, oh i know, i will go look for the guy who killed my love, and ask him to kill my family, afterall, it's bad to take revenge, we should all love each other, neh?" man, seriously, give some logical reasons, at least, crimsontide14 is more smarter than you in giving detailed reasons other than just screaming out words that you don't know the reach, pffff, p***, balls, man, grow up,it's an anime character, i felt like you were judging a president or something

@hunter8906: great, guy you're great, the last reply is right, i'll use another anime as example, Kira tried to kill every criminals in death note, even the low rated ones, it wasn't really a bad intent act, but at least he didn't had any idea as killing everyone on earth until he's the only remaining ... and right about Susaku, he was just desperately trying to find the more reasonable way to change things, and in the end if I am not wrong, Lelouch even himself turned on a plan that Susaku would have come out, don't you think? i'll support this answer, when Lelouch died, he said "destroy ... and recreate ... the world" which means, that was his real goal, but in the end, he choosed to die bringing along the hatred people grew towards him, isn't it a Susaku's style of solving things? thinking for other's welfare before himself? i think both would agree with me, that was the main difference between Lelouch and Susaku, Lelouch had power, and was trying to satisfy his own will, needs, desires, while Susaku, had no super powers, yet, he had skills, and people he cares for, and thus, tried to save these people from harm, by trying to find more power, to reduce the chances of these atrocities to reach the people he cares for. correct me if am wrong, and thank you guys for making this thread interesting, if any got me wrong as if am trying to find the last word, i apologise, i just like arguing to dig deeper in other people's point of view ... great thanks to everyone

note: if i see anyone using dirty language with no real motive, i'll put a note at the start of the thread, but on the 2nd time, i won't be so kind, try to keep the thread as clean as it came out please, thanks in advance

All ways remember that destruction leads to creation and out of war comes peace

but destruction doesn't always bring out the best issue, and even if it does, we are humans, how can one decide to have the right to choose for all these people (lol, am saying this, but i would do myself, but as i said, i want to explore your point) bring war, cause death and sufferings of countless innocents in order to bring result, which leads me to think that, you're for "the end justify the mean" there's nothing wrong about it, but, can you bear the outcome where the "end" won't turn out as you expected it? because, 2 things, suppose we try to manipulate events, humans, to bring particular results, 1. events are variable, 2. humans are variable, and however much we try to manipulate with exactitude, things might get close or not at all to what we wanted to, mostly when we choose the hard way, i'll try to represent it in another context, suppose I like a girl, if i was Susaku, I would try to learn about her, know more of her, let the relationship build, the feeling to grow, until we can both confirm if it's just friendship or more. if i was Lelouch, according to your point, i'd go straight and kiss the girl, to bring hmm fast and consequent result, it might work, if the girls too like me, but it's a double edge plan, on the other hand, back to Susaku's mode, i might go out and all, and in the end it would reveal it was just a lost of time, both ways got their good and bad side, how can you claim which is better? back to the anime itself, if Lelouch in the end, ended with a Susaku's solution style, doesn't it prove already, all his doing, just ended in a peaceful solution than something as dictatorship? he decided to let people's hatred fade away, and it even took some years before things came out as they were, like humans focusing on poverty and other problems, but Lelouch could have done all these himself, don't you think?

Well in the anime they went with the best case scenario but in reality when people try and manipulate others they first try and think of every type of scenario their brain can handle so they wont be that surprised *at least thats what i do* and maybe in the end susakus way worked in the end but for change to accure something has to get people talking and ready for action like someone else showing them that the great and powerfull britannians can be beaten

@~crimsontide14 : but you're aware that humans are variables, and that, you can never say that this or that, will work, even if it brings the wanted outcome, there might be other issues that will arise which are worse to the problem that was solved

am trying to imagine this into another scenario, where you say, they had to be convinced that britanians could be beaten

i won't go as far as to say, did it come to a matter of beating then? but, rather, this process is still sick in the way that is, you're somehow imposing your will, wish into other people, because, before telling them or showing them that this option exist, some were fine that way weren't they? i mean, imagine a real life scenario, like many say, "we can't do that, for there are many innocents" but right now, according to that logic, innocents don't count a bit, true evolution requires sacrifice, but the amount lost can always be reduced

oh there, i found my real life scenario, lol, the human body, has it's limits, we have to sleep regularly, to recover the gap of energy loss, whatever we do, we will always lose lot of energy, but we can do things, as training, and so, to increase the endurance, and make more of it, but never go as far as to never sleep, for the loss will be more consequent then, even if you end achieving something that you could never do in 10 lifes, you'd lose yours, and it seems that's exactly what happened in it, trying to force your dream as if there were no limits, would just bring a consequent loss to you, and you may still not end in succeeding in doing what you wanted, and even if you do, you won't be in a state to enjoy it, isn't it a bit silly? to work hard, kill yourself, and not get to see the thing you've gave so much of you in the end? where is "it's the worth the sacrifice"? you won't be there to say it was worth right? all this to say, "best" way is just a term, there's no really best, it just depends to the person to define if it's best or not, but in the end, both could be just good and bad in their own ways, it comes to a matter of choice, afterall, we are individuals, and so was Susaku, why i believe, the hatred is unjustified, just cause he choosed the way where he'd lose less and gain more doesn't make a valid reason to be hated, who wouldn't want to make the max of his life while making other's life better and making the loss barely consequent

All ways remember that destruction leads to creation

i don't really agree with this, if i burn a piece of paper, nothing is created from it, except some temporary heat, light, and then dust, smokes, and then nothing, where's the creation? if i use that same piece of paper, write my thoughts, and bring them alive, that is true creation, the real creation would come from a mind enough smart to link x and y to create z, and not from a mind too lazy to just destroy x and keep y because y is bigger, and if you think about it, Susaku and Lelouch both tried to obtain z, it's just the "z" entity for both of them differed

I won't hop aboard the I hate Suzaku wagon but I do have some issues with his choices. Before I rant about the many displeasing acts he made, I will say this, in my opinion Suzaku tried really hard to do the right thing above everyone else in the series. The issues that I have with him are these, he's incredibly stubborn and was way too hard on anyone who did not walk the straight line of justice, there were many opportunities for him to have sided with Lelouch earlier on in the series, and thus could have avoided the many casualties that happened. But then again that was the whole purpose of the series, still I found his unwillingness quite annoying and it led me to wishes for the worst outcome for him many times throughout the series.

When you put Lelouch and Suzaku together, you'll see that they have many similarities in their characteristics, for instance they had similar goals, and chose a completely contrasting path, which sort of complimented them. I preferred Lelouch's methods, it was in your face, loud and ruthless, I thought it was the most effective way to gain everyone's attention. Suzaku's methods on the other hand I did not like, he chose to change the system from within, and I've seen from experience that this method hardly ever works. It takes a lot of patience and endurance which he had. Suzaku's methods only had a small chance of working, and every time there was a small glimpse of hope for him, Lelouch shook things up and changed the game.

I do empathize with Suzaku, he had nothing but a title to hold on to and fell for a princess who had a fleeting dream of how to create a more peaceful world. He sought comfort from her. He fought alongside the racists and against everyone else who had similar goals to him so that he might eventually get promoted enough to change Britannia's oppression. But he was basically helping Britannia's oppression so that he would be promoted, In the mean time, He also accused people of being self righteous, which is a term that describes him more than anyone else. In the end Suzaku got a chance to be what he's always aspired to and that is a (Hero), but personally I think that Lelouch was more of a hero than Suzaku was and will ever be. To Lelouch, my hero who now resides in the shadows.

Of course im aware that humans are variables i never said they werent

the will of the many outweights the will of the few so just cause some people were ok with the way thigs were the fat that a majority of people werent wich is shown in the fact that their were alot of "terrorist" groups in jap trying to get rid of brittania

you say you dont agrre with destruction leads to creation but your example shows how that saying is correct by burning tha one object you created 4 things heat light ash and smoke now the fact that what was created wasnt as good as what was deystroyed makes no difference cause some people would rather have that little bit of light and warmth than a piece of paper

mind over matter is a powerfull thing a well trained person might be able to will themselves awake for ever if they choose to but the strain on their minds will surely kill them but if they have no problem with that then they wont see it as a loss

Suzaku is a little too...over-protective 4 me. He cares about all people, buthe doesn't want to do some kind of reblleion. And that bothers me sometimes >.<

@~crimsontide14 : like i mentioned, those 4 things created doesn't last from burning the paper, but instead, fade in just a moment, isn't it a little, irrational, it's like, "we have one life, so do anything possible even if it means we could die, for we will die in the end" it's quite an irrational reasoning, when we could make much more of that same life by trying to meet every edge without going too much onto the border line, or even past it ... aslo, to a certain point, Lelouch way wasn't so low in modesty, who's the human who can allow himself the right to choose for others? at least, Susaku was trying to limit himself to saving those he cares for and protect them, Lelouch too had that same idea, but, was ready to sacrifice everything, whether it be values or anything to reach that end

but seriously, back to the topic, there's still no real reason to hate Susaku, from the points you mentioned, he just had a different point of view

@mimilu : congratulation, i have no arguments and can only agree that you gave the really bad part of Susaku, but i mention, no character yet can be perfect, and the unreasonable hatred i've noticed on forums about Susaku was quite impressive, he was just a character that contributed a lot for the story, yet everyone focused some weird hatred towards him, and usually, for no logical reasons

I don't hate Suzaku...well...I think that many peoples might hate him because he's Lelouch's rival ...or something like that...
But everyone ends up in Lelouch's side because he's the main character/protagonist...so Suzaku ends up as the antagonist...
Personally,my favorite characters are Nunally,Lelouch and Suzaku.
Suzaku said that he wants to change from the inside,he's also very obstinate about how he's right.So no matter how many times Zero tries to convince him,he's still on the idea that he's right.
One thing that I mainly dislike about Suzaku is the part where he wanted to kill Zero so much that he went mad.Even so,I didn't finish the series(still 4-6 episodes left although I dropped for the moment)...But I was spoiled by many so I could guess what have happened.Suzaku made a lot of mistakes,but he's not that bad.
Considering the point of view of the audience,the series makes him look bad.

To raikozu :

the series makes him look bad.

that's exactly the point i wanted to bring foward, the anime did try to make him look as the bad part of everything, but, he wasn't, he was just a character living and thinking on his own, and in the end, the serie was just trying to show how, people's will, can sometime be the same and contradicting, then why is there a need to hate one or the other? if in the end, they all wanted the same thing?

I think that the reason why most people hate Suzaku is because even though he seems to take the side of justice, the side that the story is told behind is on Lelouche's side. Suzaku had many chances to go over the Lelouche's side but he refused them and took stand against the main character (therefore making him the villan) and that is probably the main reason.

Reply to vengefulspirit99 : i am aware of that theory, but the hatred towards Susaku wasn't the same as you'd hate a vilain, that was why i tried to emphasis the "why", for it's kinda weird, example, death note, the story was on Kira, yet many did prefer L than Kira, even if Kira was the main character, so, here again, there's some irrational deep hatred directed towards Susaku, and would really wish that people who do hate Susaku, think over again about the reasons they do, not because am a fan of Susaku, but i just love the anime, and found it sad, that not everyone manage to appreciate both characters to their true value!

I never hated Suzaku. To me he was one of those characters you could not hate, especially since he was a character that goes through a lot of development through both seasons. If there was one character I hated it was Shirley but she's gone, and I was happy for her death. Normally I find that people hate Suzaku because they are one of those Lelouch supporters. And it's not like he tried to do anything bad he tried to do good, a lot of good. He wanted change for the better, more than a lot of the other characters did.
But one thing that kind of was over the top with his character. HE IS SO RIGGED. He's like a super human, especially since he never had a geass, except for the one command bestowed upon him, but that doesn't count. He's been dodging bullets and such with that body of his, while Lelouch has a hard time running around the school.