Abortion is murder, plain and simple. I believe life begins at the moment of conception, when the egg is fertilized. That life in a mother's womb is not just an extension of the mother's body, but a separate life who the mother is responsible for.

abortion is also unhealthy both mentally and physically for the mother. It can cause the mother severe psycological trauma when she realizes what she has done. It has happened in many cases. Sometimes the doctors fail to remove all of the dead baby (such as the cases where they chop the baby up into small pieces to kill and remove it), which can cause many physical problems for the mother. There are also many other physical problems which can result from abortion, that is just one example.

Abortion is murder!

I dont know about murder but I do believe a woman has the right to choose.

Blah, blah, I'm stupid, blah, blah.. thats what I hear when someone starts to debate how HORRIBLE is it have an abortion, I disagree. Why does it matter what someone els does to there body that in no way whatsoever effects yer body? How do these anti-abortion groups have ANY right to tell people what to do to their own body's? I don't see how someone having an abortion effects you self righteous pricks in any negitive way, oh, boo f@#king hoo, someone is killing a baby. Guess what, kids are being killed all over the world.

I think you're wrong on this. True, people shouldn't be able to tell you what to do with YOUR body, but think about this: YOU are the baby that was aborted. The doctors and your mom decided to abort you. Now, isn't that messing with someone elses body? I mean, that child should have a chance at life. When that child is in the afterlife, and looks back, don't you think it would be horrible to see how they threw your body into a blender and dumped you in a regular garbage can? Not even a grave? It's not only the mother's body, but the child's body.

Girls can do anything they want with their bodies, if someone whats to abort, its ok for me the thing is that please people if you want to abort do it before the 3rd month, after the neural sistem is almost completly done so they wont feel anything, at least do that for the baby, it will hurt you if something enter in your home and tries to cut you part by part, then take all your pieces with a vacuum, i think its really a murder when they do things like this well this is almost ok if they just dont do it so hard, at least dont hurt the baby ><.. or use condons, or anticonceptive pills, do anything before the 3rd month, thats my only rule.

I do see abortion as murder but as far as im concerned there are circumstances that make it ok, like if a pregnancy is a danger to the life of the mother but people are selfish on this subject. women act like a pregnancy is only their concern and only their right, to a certain extent this is true but its also untrue.

as men we are both legally bound and morally bound to take care of our children but apparently this only applies after the child is born. societies attitude today and the attitude of women today acts like from conception to birth the child's fate is entirely up to the carrier (mother) and they are the only ones. this is in my opinion selfishness and gender biasm, sure a man has to take responsibility once the child is born but before then a man (father) has no rights as to the fate of his child (dna/genetics).

it is my opinion that if sex is consensual, then conception is consensual and if conception is consensual then the rights belong to both the mother and the father, regardless of whether men can carry a baby or not they still have rights! it is not our fault we cannot carry a baby! it is this unenlightened attitude that makes me want to deny all legal and moral obligations towards our children, why should i pay to support a child that i have no rights over during pregnancy, that i have no say in whether the child is born or not and its only after birth do i have any rights. it makes me feel like i only have rights after birth because at that point the baby needs care (in the form of finances), like we men have committed a crime by having sex and conceiving a child. under these biased standards, we men should stand up for ourselves and say either we have rights during the whole life of the baby from conception to birth to death or if not we should deny any responsibility at all (love'em and leave'em). women you cannot have your cake and eat it too, the life that grows in your belly is not just yours half its DNA is the fathers and even though it grows in your belly conception takes two, it is not a extention of your body it is a seperate being and the baby is the culmination of the passion or love of two people, get that TWO! TWO! TWO! TWO! TWO! not one, not you but two.

under a case of rape, i absolutely agree that rape is horrible and deplorable but if you really think about the situation outside of your own interests, you can see the baby is not responsible for the crime, it is not the rapist nor is it garuanteed that it will ever rape anyone, the baby is as innocent as anything in this world can be. it is only the incapability of the victim to deal with the rape that decides whether or not the baby gets to live, this is pure selfishness (somewhat understandable tho), just because you did not ask for this pregnancy does not mean the baby does not have a right to live. plus there are other alternatives to raising a child, hospitals will take babies anonymously and there is adoption, these are better alternatives to abortion and it saddens me that abortion is even thought of before these.

today we view sex as recreation and amusement and not as the responsibility it is. the purpose of sex is for survival of the species and not recreation even though it is pleasurable, that pleasure was merely a motivator for procreation. now im not saying casual sex is immoral but to take away all consequences of sex creates a immoral perspective of sex, that we can just have sex anytime and anywhere and take a tiny pill and wham bye-bye consequences. even if we can prove that between conception and a certain point into pregnancy that a baby lacks consciousness (or soul) does that really make it ok?? even in physics a object at rest has potential energy, does not a unborn baby have potential and therefore value?? because of abortion is it possible we have lost the man or woman that has a breakthrough leading to space travel, the next einstien, a cure for cancer or even possibly the second coming of christ (im not religious at all). all this potential value has been lost due to self-centered people who do not understand life is not about an individual its about life as a whole (the survival and progression of our entire species), that one life does not out weigh many lives and that we should all sacrifice for our species, our community and our families to better our lives.

but what i have to say always falls on deaf ears because people cannot see beyond their own limited minds and emotions. so everyone including everyone here will continue being selfish and will only perpetuate the fall of our society and morality. good job! :c) everyone get over yourselves!

"Pro life" advocates don't get it. No one thinks its ok to murder people. And because of that abortion isn't a moral question, its a question of classification. At what point in pregnancy do we give a fetus/ovum/whatever the status of 'person'. It's at that point abortion is wrong, if at all. The rights of a potential person will never outweigh that of a real person. People need to look to biology and psychology about the stages of pregnancy, consult their preferred philosophy of personal identity, and then make their judgements. Good luck with that, though.

To Zelkai:

While I agree that abortion is not a light subject, and would not personally make use of the service (I'd much rather man up to my actions)...taking all the possibilities into consideration, I feel that it is necessary to make the option available. I say this because not everyone shares my beliefs, not to mention that the issues of rape and health concern are (while you did try to give it proper weight) huge concerns where "thinking about the situation outside of [one's own ] interests" is nearly impossible and quite often extremely damaging on an emotional level.

As to wether or not the child lies under the jurisdiction of the mother, I'd say that yes, it does, so long as the mother carries that child, it is her decision. My basis for this opinion is biological...women have an exponentially greater amount of energy and time invested in the child (if it is carried to term). This is the reason for the limited production of ova in women and the naturally higher tolerance for pain that women have. the mother bears all the risk to her own life, and all the energy cost. The only major biological contribution that men make is a single cell that is constantly produced by the million.

In ending, and with all due respect, I must say that I found your final paragraph rather offensive, and I did disagree with the rather cavalier attitude that you took to rape. I will not claim to be the sole bastion of morality and civilization, and i doubt that you should either, we are all human , and when it all comes down to it, we are not perfect.

I didn't find abortion bad at all. I thought it was up to the parent(s) whether the child was a mistake or not. I never really thought of it as killing a person. But I suppose it is really. I only recently thought of it this way after watching Now and Then, Here and There.
Abortion definatly should be legal still, especially while rapists still breathe (which they shouldn't). But in a way it is also murder. So I'm really not sure any more.

Hmmmm. to me...abortion is like nothing i would care about in this world. Since its up to the parents to decide whether to keep it or not even if they were raped..then they whould decide. Why would you wanna give birth to a child with no father and having the child with someone that raped you and hurt you through a rough time. You probably have no money or home, kinda stupid really... (stupid rapist) . So i dont think abortion is a murder if the egg isn't fully developed into a baby yet or something,then i wouldn't call it murder, but i dont really care.. it would be their fault that did it...so why bother care about others abortion problem... you should blame the rapists instead and make that a serious crime... stupid rapists, they are gay..

Men would not understand how it felt to be raped and then have this constant reminder of being raped forming inside of you, feeding off of you, causing you to have weird cravings and vomit every morning...

People are showing pictures of aborted babies.. Want to see pictures of girls mutilating themselves because they cant have the abortion?

I saw this topic a while back and refrained from really saying anything, but after reading over some of the respinses, i feel an informed opinion is needed. i'm not going to quote anyone, nor will i attack anyone personally, but heres the deal.
i saw my first abortion when i was about 8 or 9 years old. and at even such a young age i knew exactly what was going on.
i hate tha rguement "you can't tell them what to do, it's their body"
first of all, whats being harmed is not THEIR body. it's the child that they carry. you are killing the CHILD, not the mother. the mother isn't committing suicide by saying..."i want an abortion" she's committing murder. murder to a life that is depending on her every thought and breathe to live. so long as a the child has no defense, and cannot say, "yes i agree with my mother. do away with me." then it's wrong.
if you get pregnant by accident, well, thats your stupid fault. first of all, sex...the whole reason for it is reproduction. it's not supposed to be for the pure pleasure of it. the REASON it feels good is because as humans, if it hurt like hell, we wouldn't do it, and we'd die out. for dogs for example, it's painful as hell. the reaosn they do it? instinct. procreation for them is an instinct, so even though it hurts, they do it.
i don't know how many of you have actually done research on the subject, but it's usually the ignorant that believe that abortion is okay. and i don't mean you read stats and opinions. i mean you actually sat down and watched an abortion. you watched the "doctor" jam the a scissor like instrument into the back of the head. you watched the childs mouth open as if to scream. you saw them remove the brains with a "vaccuum", and remove the dead body, deflated head and all, and throw it out. sometimes, limbs are removed.
sorry, but last time i checked, that was concidered barbaric, and if it was even a child that had just been born that we did this too, we'd be put away for murder.

and heres something for you to think about...
the reason they remove the brain in the body is not because the head won't fit through the vagina. it's because the moment the head leaves the body, if it's still alive, it's concidered born. so they pull out the entire body, leaving only the head inside to perform the procedure. i've seen it done. i've talked about it, and my mother worked in a pregnancy center. i'd work there myself if i wasn't away at school.

statistics don't make something right or worng. nor does religion. nor does science or any of that shit. i believe everyone agrees that taking an innocent life is wrong, right? what is more innocent than an unborn child? answer me that. because, unlike a born child, it doesn't scream and cry all night, nor does it rip up your magazines when you're not looking. so why take out your mistake and stupidity on a defensless child? they're doing just what your decision and body instructed them to do. to grow and develop and to eventually be born.
give birth, put it up for adoption. i hate the "adoption makes kids miserable" bullshit, because i have 2 friends, both who were adopted, and ask them. they thank god every day because they weren't aborted. and they wouldn't have been able to affect my life like they did if they have been.

the arguement that always gets me is..."what if you give birth to the next hitler"
yeah? well what if you abort the person who could cure aids, cancer, and take us to salvation?
if you want the facts, talk to someone that actually knows. not some guys opinion online.
or read medical journals like i have again and again. learn about the harmful effects that an abortion can have physically or psychologically on the mother. you might even be shocked.

granted, sometimes there are exceptions. for example, rape or incest.
but heres another thing to think about...
1% of people that are raped can get pregnant. why? because of the fear and the emotional overload and such, the body releases a hormone that makes it almost impossible to get pregnant. granted it does happen, i'm not denying that. but it's a very very VERY small percentage.
or, the mothers life is in danger. well, i believe if that happens, it was meant to be. i won't say that the mother should give up her life for the child, but i don't think abortion should be the only thing concidered.

yeah the world is overpopulated. but that doesn't mean, "hey...that makes abortions okay"
that means...hey guys, stop screwing like rabbits.

anyways, bottom line, abortion is wrong. planned parenthood is full of shit (to a degree most of you couldn't even imagine), and unless you're educated, don't preach about something that you don't understand. i'd llove to debate this out with someone who's pro-choice and has a frim hold and understanding of it.

okay, i take that first lil line back for a second. i just read this and i wanted to say something...

wariomona

I didn't find abortion bad at all. I thought it was up to the parent(s) whether the child was a mistake or not.

thata a horrible thing to say. no life is a mistake.
children aren't mistakes. your choice to have sex that night is the only mistake. and the child shouldn't pay for it.

For some dumb reason i could not delete this post after accidentally hitting submit in the middle of a writing my next post. so i decided to edit it so i do not repeat myself

Sorry sook, i have plenty of knowledge when it comes to biology and no two biologists can really agree on at what point does a baby gains consciousness or can feel pain (it seems to be a matter of perspective), thats why this is a matter of morality. you are right about one thing a potential person will never outweigh that of a real person and this is why i mentioned a birth that is a danger to the mother's life is a acceptable reason to have an abortion but if there is no danger to the mother's life then the mother's rights do not outweigh those of the potential child.

to grimmangel, you are absolutely right, the mother does invest more time and energy into carrying the child but as i said before its not our (men) fault that we cannot carry a baby, so why should we (men) have our rights over our children taken away just because a female can carry a baby? and if we (men) supposedly have no rights from conception to birth why is it we (men) all of a sudden have responsibilities (supposed rights) as soon as the baby is born? i say supposed cause the whole legal system is gender biased when it comes to children. sure pregnancy is a difficult and personal (only cause women only can have babies) process and in no way convenient to the mother but the attitude towards this is a little too convenient for me, a little too self-centered and biased for my tastes. as i said in my last post the baby is not a extension of the mothers body, it is a seperate life, a life created by a egg and SPERM. without the male counterpart no conception can happen, without sperm no fertilization can happen and so without US MEN you women cannot even have a baby. so explain to me why we have no rights during pregnancy but then so conveniently after birth we do! *shock* ooh thats right its because at that point women realize they do not have to raise the child alone, that they can legally force men to either helping raise the child or if not they can get financial support. either way they get support and money from men.

of course not all women are like this, what im pointing out rather is societies veiwpoint of this and this viewpoint like many others (like; christian morality) infects our children, raising them to have biased and descriminating views and since we do not know any better we adopt these views making change difficult both personally and on a larger scale (society).

my mother is an exceptional woman, she raised two children alone, making only five dollars an hour. she did not need help, she is on the opposite viewpoint that i am, she believes too that pregnancy is solely a woman's right and choice but she also uses logic and decided that if men had no rights during pregnancy that they had no responsibilities after birth either. she realized that that attitude was almost like punishment towards men.

blossoms, thats silly why would having no father be an excuse for abortion? thats an old and outdated attitude that it takes both a mother and a father to raise a healthy child.

blossoms and puppychow16, about rape you still dont get it, THAT CHILD DID NOT RAPE YOU, IT IS NOT THE RAPIST AND IN FACT IT HAS NEVER COMMITTED A CRIME IN ITS LIFE, IT IS AS INNOCENT AS ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD CAN BE AND TO PUNISH THE CHILD FOR THE CRIME OF THE RAPIST IS UNJUST. you are right puppychow i cannot understand what is like to carry the child from a rape but i can imagine, it would be horrible, metally taxing to the limits and i would not be surprised if most women who have been raped have a mental breakdown but the incapability of the victim to handle the situation is not an excuse to destroy the child, at that point the victim is ONLY thinking about themselves (understandable) when they are not the only life involved. also puppychow, do not for one moment think men do not have an understanding of what it is like to be raped, men can be raped by other men (happens all the time in prison) and it effects them mentally alot like it affects a woman.

bravo kalico!, while you and i do not agree on every point, i applaud you for using and understanding that knowledge makes alot of difference when it comes to how we view and correctly viewing a subject like this. too many people go through life with perspectives based on emotion alone, too many people have veiws about subjects that they have little to no knowledge about but express them like they know the truth.

blossoms and puppychow16, about rape you still dont get it, THAT CHILD DID NOT RAPE YOU, IT IS NOT THE RAPIST AND IN FACT IT HAS NEVER COMMITTED A CRIME IN ITS LIFE, IT IS AS INNOCENT AS ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD CAN BE AND TO PUNISH THE CHILD FOR THE CRIME OF THE RAPIST IS UNJUST.

thats where i go back in the part that if you want to abort for that reasons at least dont make the baby suffer and do it the sooner as you can. Being raped its not a great thing, you feel yukki with your body, and having the baby that remains you that horrible experience wont help you to recover.

Sorry sook, i have plenty of knowledge when it comes to biology and no two biologists can really agree on at what point does a baby gains consciousness or can feel pain (it seems to be a matter of perspective), thats why this is a matter of morality.

of course they can feel pain, have you ever seen the movie , silent scream, its like a ultrasonic image of whats happening while they are killing the baby and it seems like the baby is screaming while he is being cutting part my part. but no one could hear that, thats why the "silent" in the title. I'm pro abortion as soon as they do it at least before the 2 month, so the neural and the circulatory system wont be complete and the baby wont feel any pain. After that for me is a muder.