First, THIS THREAD DOES NOT AIM TO ATTACK AT CHRISTIANS OR BELIEVERS IN ANY WAY, IF YOU FEEL OFFENDED, REMOVE YOURSELF INSTEAD OF FLAMING OTHERS.

http://atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html

here is what I have found, and it fails terribly hard on certain aspects, however, the idea it presented is very valid, not to mention an interesting read.

I personally lean toward the idea that a *man* named Jesus existed, but as for the whole savior of man, son of God thing... ehh.. I can't buy it. I think he may have been a noble man, with good ideas - much like Gandhi. But, somewhere along the line, folks took him as a figurehead and blew things out of proportion. I'd also a lot of stuff was changed to basically promote the power of the church during the middle ages.

Whether or not you believe in Jesus as man or savior, however, his fundamental message of love for all Mankind is still a worthy sentiment. The area where the fundamentalists and such get into being asshats is they spend so much time making sure people believe in the man and the myth that they completely ignore the message.

However:
If he was like Ghandi then why doesn't he bear a written history about him like Ghandi? It's not like people back then didn't record history.

2000 years after Ghandi's death (as long as the human race is still around) people will still be able to dig out historical writings and information from Ghandi's own time that show he was a real person.

Same reason why we are able to know about so many other historical figures around ancient times. They were written about by thier contemporaries.

Jesus was NOT written about in historical documents by anyone who lived at the same time he had lived.

so many doubts.
This thread would probably decend into a crippling flame war, so please show some facts and arguments.
I like to hear from those people who feel of the subject.

But that's not the point, it's faith, it's not supposed to be proven by science or something -- if it is to be proven, then it won't be faith anymore, it will be a common fact.

but actually only a minority of ppl/believers think as i do, so... nvm me ;p

I'm a christian and an engineer so my thoughts about this are always in opposition.
I believe in god & other stuff but sometimes i don't agree with what is the bible because it's made of transcription of repeated things to ears and interpretations from translators so certain things can be highly exaggerated or wrongs (a same word doesn't mean the same in different times!). Anyway, Who knows ?
For example, one time i said when i die, i don't care about my dead body : you can throw it to the animals for meal and my mum was about to kill me for saying that ...
So i decided to believe and when i'll die; i'll see if i was right or not.

I believe Jesus existed and still exists...I believe that Jesus came from Heaven to die for our sins...so that we all have a chance at salvation...I hate to believe that Jesus didn't exist...because if I know correctly...according to atheists...we came to existence by CHANCE...I don't believe in that crap...sorry...chance isn't in my vocabulary...I believe Jesus created the Heaven and Earth...we all came into existence for a purpose...and I believe everyone has the potential to reach it...I guess different denominations of religion can oppose my beliefs on HOW Jesus was involved in creation and why and if He came to this earth as a human...but man...I believe Jesus exists...atheists need to learn the word faith...if they need tangible proof every time in order to be convinced that something exists...then they will ONLY be attracted to the things of this world...(no offense to atheists I know a lot of great atheist people I just not a support of atheism).

Not about faith, it is about jesus, what if he never existed, would you have the same faith as you hvae now? How would it impact society as today would have?

alienzero

but that's not the point, it's faith, it's not supposed to be proven by science or something -- if it is to be proven, then it won't be faith anymore, it will be a common fact.

but actually only a minority of ppl/believers think as i do, so... nvm me ;p

I'm with you on that...Amen

Saka4Rob10

I'm a christian and an engineer so my thoughts about this are always in opposition.
I believe in god & other stuff but sometimes i don't agree with what is the bible because it's made of transcription of repeated things to ears and interpretations from translators so certain things can be highly exaggerated or wrongs (a same word doesn't mean the same in different times!). Anyway, Who knows ?
For example, one time i said when i die, i don't care about my dead body : you can throw it to the animals for meal and my mum was about to kill me for saying that ...
So i decided to believe and when i'll die; i'll see if i was right or not.

I don't know what kind of denomination of christianity you believe in but...I really don't see what's wrong feeding your dead body to animals...it's your body...you can request for anyone to do anything with it...christians might say OHHHH but our BODIES ARE THE TEMPLES OF GOD...but seriously...when we are dead...we are dead...the dead know NOTHING...look it up in the bible...it's somewhere in Matthew and it says that (if you really need me to look it up and show it to you that I will)...so you know what...your body can burn, be eaten, or be cremated or whatever...but it's all ultimately whether you have a firm belief in God...NO RELIGION CAN SAVE YOU..only YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND GOD HIMSELF CAN

Omnidevil

not about faith, it is about jesus, what if he never existed, would you have the same faith as you hvae now? How would it impact society as today would have?

you are contradicting yourself...faith is about Jesus and Jesus is about faith...if neither existed...neither would be significant and I wouldn't have the belief I have today

Omnidevil

not about faith, it is about jesus, what if he never existed, would you have the same faith as you hvae now? How would it impact society as today would have?

lol, you just dont get it. of course, society would probably collapse if they knew Jesus didnt exsted for sure, but for me it's exactly as i stated -- you cannot prove to me He existed or not if i believe in Him, thats the definition of the word 'belief' -- so, i just believe. ;]

AZNsmith

alienzero

but that's not the point, it's faith, it's not supposed to be proven by science or something -- if it is to be proven, then it won't be faith anymore, it will be a common fact.

but actually only a minority of ppl/believers think as i do, so... nvm me ;p

I'm with you on that...Amen

Saka4Rob10

I'm a christian and an engineer so my thoughts about this are always in opposition.
I believe in god & other stuff but sometimes i don't agree with what is the bible because it's made of transcription of repeated things to ears and interpretations from translators so certain things can be highly exaggerated or wrongs (a same word doesn't mean the same in different times!). Anyway, Who knows ?
For example, one time i said when i die, i don't care about my dead body : you can throw it to the animals for meal and my mum was about to kill me for saying that ...
So i decided to believe and when i'll die; i'll see if i was right or not.

I don't know what kind of denomination of christianity you believe in but...I really don't see what's wrong feeding your dead body to animals...it's your body...you can request for anyone to do anything with it...christians might say OHHHH but our BODIES ARE THE TEMPLES OF GOD...but seriously...when we are dead...we are dead...the dead know NOTHING...look it up in the bible...it's somewhere in Matthew and it says that (if you really need me to look it up and show it to you that I will)...so you know what...your body can burn, be eaten, or be cremated or whatever...but it's all ultimately whether you have a firm belief in God...NO RELIGION CAN SAVE YOU..only YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND GOD HIMSELF CAN

What makes you be the son of god is your soul and when you die your soul is separated from your body; so your soul will go to heaven and what remains is only flesh and bones. Anyway, i know i'm not always a good christian but i don't believe that for example heaven will close its doors to you if someone take your dead body and do something wrong with it.

alienzero

Omnidevil

not about faith, it is about jesus, what if he never existed, would you have the same faith as you hvae now? How would it impact society as today would have?

lol, you just dont get it. of course, society would probably collapse if they knew Jesus didnt exsted for sure, but for me it's exactly as i stated -- you cannot prove to me He existed or not if i believe in Him, thats the definition of the word 'belief' -- so, i just believe. ;]

I agree...Jesus' existence would have been in vain if we didn't have faith...and our faith would be in vain if Jesus never existed...but hey...let me say this...even if Jesus didn't exist...I feel like a better person when I'm Christian...I rather try to live a better life than give in to all the things of this world

Saka4Rob10

AZNsmith

alienzero

but that's not the point, it's faith, it's not supposed to be proven by science or something -- if it is to be proven, then it won't be faith anymore, it will be a common fact.

but actually only a minority of ppl/believers think as i do, so... nvm me ;p

I'm with you on that...Amen

Saka4Rob10

I'm a christian and an engineer so my thoughts about this are always in opposition.
I believe in god & other stuff but sometimes i don't agree with what is the bible because it's made of transcription of repeated things to ears and interpretations from translators so certain things can be highly exaggerated or wrongs (a same word doesn't mean the same in different times!). Anyway, Who knows ?
For example, one time i said when i die, i don't care about my dead body : you can throw it to the animals for meal and my mum was about to kill me for saying that ...
So i decided to believe and when i'll die; i'll see if i was right or not.

I don't know what kind of denomination of christianity you believe in but...I really don't see what's wrong feeding your dead body to animals...it's your body...you can request for anyone to do anything with it...christians might say OHHHH but our BODIES ARE THE TEMPLES OF GOD...but seriously...when we are dead...we are dead...the dead know NOTHING...look it up in the bible...it's somewhere in Matthew and it says that (if you really need me to look it up and show it to you that I will)...so you know what...your body can burn, be eaten, or be cremated or whatever...but it's all ultimately whether you have a firm belief in God...NO RELIGION CAN SAVE YOU..only YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD AND GOD HIMSELF CAN

What makes you be the son of god is your soul and when you die your soul is separated from your body; so your soul will go to heaven and what remains is only flesh and bones. Anyway, i know i'm not always a good christian but i don't believe that for example heaven will close its doors to you if someone take your dead body and do something wrong with it.

sorry I don't believe that our souls go to heaven when we die...I'm sorry...but hey...I respect what you believe...and we all might have a different interpretation of what happens we die...but it's ultimately our relationship with God...People...especially Catholics might probably will oppose to what I'm goin to say now...but the pope can't save you...I can't save you...it's ultimately God...I believe in a loving God...you can say all the Hail Marys you want...but we are all part of God's family...I hate to believe that God uses a balance to determine whether we are saved or not...If my parents had to use a scale to balance all the good things and bad things...then I must admit that the bad things will definitely outweigh the good...I'm human...I make many mistakes...but you know what...my parents LOVE me...and so does God...I believe He loved us so much that He sent His only Son to die for us and our sins (John 3:16)...so that WE ALL have a chance...therefore...I believe Jesus exist (I think I made that point before)

I guess you are right, I did contradict myself.
it is a good thing I follow values rather than believing in some divine figure.
By the way...
I did not say I was trying to find proof, rather, in that article and site I linked, they did( at least tried, I would not have bothered). I follow moral values, I do what moral tells me is good, but I do not want to believe in a divine being.

One thing tho, like that Da Vinci Code theory, would things have been different?

of course, society would probably collapse if they knew Jesus didnt exsted for sure,

this I do not believe, but of course, many will fall down and be shaken by the fact that whole issue was fake, and that everything they believed was a lie. However, like you said, faith is what kept it going.
Was his existence, say like what I have said on the first post simply blew out of porpotion? If all was to say he did? Some even mentioned he was a rabbi, a jewish teacher, who spread his own cult to the locals, and then due to the times, when everything was unstable, his promises gave hope and that was why it garnered so much attention...

I am more interested at how the course of history would have changed and that how shaken would it have been for people now if say one important aspect was taken away .

AZNsmith

Omnidevil

not about faith, it is about jesus, what if he never existed, would you have the same faith as you hvae now? How would it impact society as today would have?

you are contradicting yourself...faith is about Jesus and Jesus is about faith...if neither existed...neither would be significant and I wouldn't have the belief I have today

true, I did.

I agree...Jesus' existence would have been in vain if we didn't have faith...and our faith would be in vain if Jesus never existed...but hey...let me say this...even if Jesus didn't exist...I feel like a better person when I'm Christian...I rather try to live a better life than give in to all the things of this world

but do you need faith to do good?
do you really need a religion and a divine being to do good? Is compassionate behavior always and will be dominated simply because you believe in a divine being? Why can't the same exists for the same reward? Say I do good for the rest of my life, in the end I receive nothing from"God" cause I do not believe. Would that have been fair? A judgement bestowed upon those who do not rightfully deserved it?

I agree with AZNsmith when he says the pope can't save you. It's obvious since he's an human like you and me; he also makes mistakes. It's the same with churchs, you can pray at your home if you want it's the same.
I'm not less catholic because i think that.

do you really need a religion and a divine being to do good?

I think you always need something to not make you cross or enlarge the lines but the problem is to establish the lines you can tell ... I have no answer to that; it's up to yourself ...

Omnidevil

I agree...Jesus' existence would have been in vain if we didn't have faith...and our faith would be in vain if Jesus never existed...but hey...let me say this...even if Jesus didn't exist...I feel like a better person when I'm Christian...I rather try to live a better life than give in to all the things of this world

but do you need faith to do good?
do you really need a religion and a divine being to do good? Is compassionate behavior always and will be dominated simply because you believe in a divine being? Why can't the same exists for the same reward? Say I do good for the rest of my life, in the end I receive nothing from"God" cause I do not believe. Would that have been fair? A judgement bestowed upon those who do not rightfully deserved it?

okay...this is a VERY BAD analogy I'm going to make here...but if I want to beat a computer game as EFFICIENT AND FULFILLED as possible...I'll most likely follow the guide that is specifically made for that game...it tells me everything I have to do...So is the Word of God...It's God's guide in the game of life...this life is filled with a lot of crap (I'm sure at least someone can agree with me here)...and in my entire life so far...I believe the Word of God is the most pure...and most true book I ever read in my life...and through the Word...I believe God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father exists...but like I said...even IF...they didn't exist (which in my opinion is out of the question...but I mentioned it for argument sake)...then I would have at least lived to be a beter person...sure there are many GREAT people out there...there is no doubt about it...my dad is not a christian (actually an ex-chrisitian) but he is probably the best dad I can ever have...but he has habits in life that aren't so good for him...and I don't have those habits because I follow the Word...I believe the Word of God...not only makes us better Chrisitans but also better people...so with that stuff I just said...I can sum up to this...following the Word of God and believing in Him is probably better than following and believing anything else...and also..Omnidevil...I HAVE TO DISAGREE with the word deserved...NO ONE DESERVES salvation...we are all human...we should all die...but JESUS (there is that name again)...died for our sins...so we all have a chance...SALVATION is A GIFT...people make it SOOO HARD TO obtain it that people lose themselves in the acts of being Christian and they lose sight of the Lord...the moment you give your heart to God YOU ARE SAVED!!...but when your heart turns from God...God can't give you salvation NOT BECAUSE HE HATES YOU...it's because He knows that if you don't believe in Him on earth...He knows you definitely can't believe in Him in heaven...so all He can do is put you out of your misery because you still have sin...and the only way now to destory it is to destroy the sinner (which is sad for God and for those who are saved...which I believe motivates me to reach out to others)...I believe God deos this out of love...I don't think He all of sudden says "BURN IN HELL YOU LOSERS...HAHAHAH...BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN" I love to see someone find that in the Bible...it's really just sensational material...anyway...those are my two cents