shotkeeper

Man I totally don't wanted to read this thread. Since i'm only at episode 40. And the fight of Ichigo and Zaracki was totally freaking awesome.

I don't wanted to read those spoilers , but ah well.

WTTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFf

Kenpachi finally named his Soul Slayer??
Colllerooni!!

If there is one thing I learned, you should not read forums until you are done with the anime. Because technically this was not a spoiler for people who are up-to-date. As for Kenpachi's soul slayer's name, I think you read wrong, there is nothing to say that here.

And plus, shinigami do not name their soul slayers, they have a name to begin with, shinigami just learn of their names.

I dont have the time to lok up the other half of this about the explination of the Shikai release. But here his how KENPACHI doesn't have Shiukai chinaman..stupid nub.

Manga Chapter 109 Page 16
Ichigo: Damn, you still underestimate me…
Is that why you’re not releasing the seal on your soul cutter?
Manga Chapter 109 Page 17
Kenpachi: I didn’t put any seal on it.
Ichigo: What?
Kenpachi: my soul cutter has no name.
Ichigo: What are you thinking? My sword already wounded you..If you keep holding back, I’ll definatley beat you.
Kenpachi: This.. Is the true form of my soul cutter.


It has been determined through THIS FORUM AS WELL AS OTHER SOURCES, YOU MUST RELEASE YOU'RE ZANPAKU-TO TO ACHIEVE SHIKAI. THE STANDARD FORM IS THE ZANPAKU-TO WITH A SEAL ON IT (or the form of an unnamed zanpaku-to)...THANK YOU, KENPACHI HAS NO SEAL THANK YOU...now STFU and get OFF MY CASE

Roognok

It has been determined through THIS FORUM AS WELL AS OTHER SOURCES, YOU MUST RELEASE YOU'RE ZANPAKU-TO TO ACHIEVE SHIKAI. THE STANDARD FORM IS THE ZANPAKU-TO WITH A SEAL ON IT (or the form of an unnamed zanpaku-to)...THANK YOU, KENPACHI HAS NO SEAL THANK YOU...now STFU and get OFF MY CASE

I'm sorry but what are your sources? And you'd better tell Wikipedia & Tite Kubo to shut up since both say that Kenpachi's soul cutter is in released form!

And let's examine a little...

ShiKai = first release;
Seal = hides release;
Kenpachi's Sword = no seal;
Therefore: Kenpachi's sword is in shikai

And that is exactly what what the pages that you put as reference say.

And please restrain yourself from telling people to shut up on a forum. If you can't take different opinions, write a journal or something where only your opinions are stated. Else please construct better arguments and try to act civilized.

Just because Kenpachi's zanpakuto doesn't have a seal on it doesn't automatically mean that he has attained shikai. His overflow of reiatsu also doesn't automatically mean he has a shikai. Just because one has a large reiatsu doesn't mean you attain shikai, one attains shikai through knowing the name of your zanpakuto and nothing else. There is no other way of attaining shikai. Chinaman91 and summerssunset you're right when you say that Ichigo can't seal his zanpakuto because of his reiatsu. But that argument doesn't carry over to Kenpachi because he has nothing to seal. Not knowing the name of your zapakuto = not having a shikai. Following this information that Bleach has put out I would say that it's pretty clean cut that Zenpachi hasn't attained shikai.

But... as chinaman91 and summerssunset you point out there are various other bleach sources that explicitly state otherwise. I guess, to me it logically doesn't make sense. I'm trying to reconcile the fact that they tell me in the Bleach universe one attains shikai ONLY through knowing the name of your zanpakuto and with the fact that even though Kenpachi doesn't know the name of his zanpakuto, its considered to be in a released state. I find those to be contradictory statements, even though this information has been published through official sources.

Question. Do they state that Kenpachi has a shikai or that his zanpakuto is always in a released form? I guess if they said that his zanpakuto is always in a released state, that wouldn't bother me as much as if they explicitly said that he has attained shikai, because I still think that is logically incorrect. Even though they essentially mean the same thing...

I know Kenpachi having a released Zanpactou without knowing its name sounds strange/extraordinary but keep in mind he can take take on 2 or more captains using their Bankai without him having a bankai. That isnt far fetched to having a released Zanpactou without knowing its name. Its unbelievable but Kenpachi is unbelievable. Dnt know if I made any sense lol

I think I've basically come to terms with the fact that the state of Kenpachi's zanpakuto is an anomaly. Like Ace07 you said, Kenpachi as a character is unbelievable. He doesn't really fit anywhere and breaks all the rules: monstrous reiatsu, no bankai, crazy obsession with fighting and blood, doesn't necessarily care about the state of souls and such as long as he gets to fight someone etc. Him just totally owning on Captains while they are using bankai is kinda scary. If he had only shikai that would be scary and if he didn't have shikai that would be even scarier.

I stubbornly still hold the belief that Kenpachi hasn't attained shikai. I can still say this because I feel that the official sources that would point to Kenpachi not having a shikai and those that point to him having a shikai are contradictory. I feel that they contradict themselves and the only way that I can reconcile this contradiction is to say that Kenpachi is an exception. For me the exception is that even though he doesn't know the name of his zanpakuto, Kenpachi wields a zapakuto in a released state.

I really don't think that if you held the opinion of "yes shikai" or "no shikai" either way it would really change how one views Kenpachi and in the big picture of things, I don't think it really matters whether or not Kenpachi has attained shikai. I guess it's stuff like this that becomes fodder for Bleach fans to debate over.

Soz NELEH but ma english isnt that gd, havent fully understood your last post. are you saying that Kenpachi is an exception to have a released Zanpactou without knowing it name?

Yeah, that's the gist of what I'm saying. Released would imply shikai which would imply that he knows the name of his zanpakuto, which Kenpachi doesn't. But like Chinaman91 and summerssunset have pointed out that official sources state that Kenpachi carries a released zanpakuto, I personally would conclude that Kenpachi is an exception. That's the only way that I could see things working out so that the definition of shikai remains what it is and Kenpachi wielding a released zanpakuto can work logically.

Summersunset: I can't post a url or whatnot of my sources, because it comes from the manga books that I own. They release a Japanese version and an English version of the mangas in Japan before they release the english in America and I can (at the end of this post will) put up a url of the mangas that you can read online (if you register). These online reads are almost to a T exactly what my books say. Par say, the quotes from the mangas themselves, that I posted.

http://www.bleach-network.com

After you register, comfirm registration and the like. Log in, and check the Bleach Manga Online (bubble) There, you can read to your hearts content of all 315 releases of the Manga.

When I have time, I'll post the quotes from the manga about you having to have released your Zanpaku-to and know it's name to achieve Shikai and later Bankai.

All am saying is that Kenpachi might b an exception. Like Ichigo. Byakuya stated sumthing in the lines of, 'Even within the 4 noble clans in SS, only one person in several generations will b born with enough spiritial pressure to achieve Bankai". And because it takes a couple of hundreds of yrs to master, its mainly exclusive 2 the 13 captains. But Ichigo from the huma world achieved it in 3 days. I think Kenpachi is just one of the exceptional characters. Goter run so cant write more

Thank you Roognok but I already have several online bleach places where there is no need for registration. Like onemanga from where I took my quotes. And plus you may just state the chapter and the eventual scene if you want to prove.

As for Kenpachi, I think what everybody wants to say is that shikai is achieved only by knowing your sword's name. That means you get along with your sword and it gives you power in it's first release. But if you about it this way, Kenpachi with his high spiritual power just "forces" the sword to be in first release. After all if you remember Ichigo said he heard the sword's cry. So this might just be an explanation for the anomaly.

That's an interesting take on Kenpachi and shikai, summerssunset, but I don't think that there would be anyway to "force" your zanpakuto to be in shikai. I mean, what really would you be "forcing" the zanpakuto to? The end result of shikai is that one gets more power. By knowing the name of your zanpakuto, you tap into the power of your zanpakuto. Thus, the whole working and fighting together with your zanpakuto. But Kenpachi doesn't get any more power from his zanpakuto. All that power comes from himself. The zanpakuto is just a weapon to channel his reaitsu.

As for Ichigo hearing Kenpachi's sword cry, that doesn't mean that it's in shikai. That just affirms the living nature of zanpakutos. I'm sure Zangetsu was trying to communicate with Ichigo even before we see the actual figure of Zangetsu appear in the manga. But Ichigo couldn't hear him. Even when Zangetsu shows up in the manga, he can't hear Zangetsu's name at first (refer to Ch 63 P.5, I'm pretty sure this is where he meets Zangetsu for the first time as he trains to regain shinigami powers with Urahara). Ichigo being able to hear the blade cry has no bearing on whether or not Kenpachi is in shikai. Kenpachi needs to hear it for it to matter.

Oh Roognak, here's a quote about the nature of shikai that you were talking about:

Context: Yoruichi is explaining to Ichigo the existence of Bankai at the underground training area. Timeline wise it's after his major battle with Kenpachi and after being carried away after confronting Byakuya at the Shrine of Penitence, but before his major battle with Byakuya.

So Yoruichi tells Ichigo that
"You need communication and synchronization with your soul cutter to achieve the initial release" (Ch 127, P. 5), then goes on to explain bankai.

Judging from what Yoruichi says, and what I believe to be the exclusive definition of shikai, it seems pretty impossible to force shikai with one's reiatsu alone.

Sigh... raking my brain to accommodate this anomaly is actually beginning to give me a minor headache... lol

Thanks for the quote neleh. My books show that quote being on Chapter 127 Page 6...lol But it is there. I had thought it was Yoruichi that had explained that to Ichigo, I just didnt have that much time before i had to leave for work to look for it.

summerssunset: It just occured to me ro say this from your post above about Kenpachi's Zanpaku-to.

summerssunset Wrote:
ShiKai = first release;
Seal = hides release;
Kenpachi's Sword = no seal;
Therefore: Kenpachi's sword is in shikai

The seal form is also an unnamed Zanpaku-to. Kenpachi has never released his Zanpaku-to. It's almost contradictary itself in the manga. A sealed Zanpaku-to takes the form of an unnamed Zanpaku-to. So technically, they're the same as far as loks and whatnot goes. The only diffrence is a sealed one is of a user knowing the name of the Zanpaku-to but has sealed it as to save reiatsu.

Kenpachi has a crap load of Reiatsu yes. He simply doesn'tknow how to fully control it, hence his eye-patch. Captain Yamamoto and Aizen both have the same amount of Reaitsu as Kenpachi, but they know how to control theirs. (This is only in terms of Kenpachi not knowing how to control his Reiatsu.) I'm going to assume for a moment, that Kenpachi has too much Reiatsu to control which is why it flows freely. If he were to contorl his Reiatsu, uh...need i say it?

The cry that I mentioned was to underline how much the sword is affected by it's user, and how this is a sign that Kenpachi might be influence for the sword. And what Yourichi(sp?) said is a general thing. When you want to explain something you do not go into exceptions and so. Because Kenpachi is just an exception.

The way I see it, Kenpachi's sword is in released form aka shikai because of his huge spiritual power. You see in his fight with Ichigo that his spiritual pressure is beyond normal. And it puts a lot of pressure on all things around him. And probably that sword is just releasing itself to be able to bear with it? This going a bit far, and it's just a theory, but it might be a reason for this exception. Because except Yachiru no one can stand a lot near him.

And in the end, I think you should take a look outside the box. This is a whole world that has been created, and I doubt everything is working by too strict rules. Anything has an exception. And because both swords and sword's owners have human nature, I guess it's a bit to hard to put a stamp on it and say that's how it is. And with that I mean, shikai which literally means first release, does not necessarily point to "the only way of getting it is to know the name". As Kenpachi's history proves, you can go by without a name, even though it is painful (therefore the cry). And then we have Ichigo's example who (even though the rule pointed: bankai can only be achieved in such a long time) went bankai in only 3 days. And plus, if the author, who clearly knows more of Bleach than any of us, said his sword is in shikai, then I think we should accept it, not as a contradiction in his words, but as an example of a more real world fact.

Hey Roognak, no problem about the quote. When you said that you were going to quote something about the definition about shikai, it got me thinking about trying to remember where they actually talked about shikai, so I ended up looking it for it so my curiosity could be satisfied. I guess it's an understanding about the page numbers being a little different. I'm quoting from scans found on onemanga.com so it's understandable if there is a little bit of difference from the published book. But like you said, it's there.

Roognak

The seal form is also an unnamed Zanpaku-to. . . . A sealed Zanpaku-to takes the form of an unnamed Zanpaku-to. So technically, they're the same as far as loks and whatnot goes.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm sure that it's just a technicality and maybe I'm just being really anal, but I wouldn't call the sealed form of a zanpakuto the same as an unnamed zanpakuto. I would say that a sealed zanpakuto usually looks like a normal katana, which unnamed zanpakuto would also look it. But I wouldn't make the jump that the sealed form of a zanpakuto takes the form of an unnamed zanpakuto. They both look like katanas, but not like each other. I know the difference is pretty minor, but I still think that it's important. Plus, I think an "unnamed" zapakuto is descriptive of a state of the zanpakuto whereas "sealed" is an actual form.

And also remember that sealed zanpakuto don't have to look like katanas, it just seems to be the default and frankly probably easier to draw the majority of people holding katanas instead of other things. Urahara's looks like a cane and Ichimaru's is a wakizashi, which is like a katana but shorter. (This is taken from wikipedia under Ichimaru Gin's profile. You can also check the manga, Ch 75 P.9 & 10 show close-ups of Ichimaru's sealed zanpakuto when he confronts Ichigo and his gang at the gate. HIs zanpakuto is noticeably shorter than one would expect a katana to be.)

As for Kenpachi and his reiatsu, wouldn't it be funny if Kenpachi does actually have full control over his reiatsu but is
1. too lazy to keep it in check and thus the eye patch
2. purposefully letting it leak out to freak people out and to
3. lure strong people towards him so he can have a good time

I actually can see number 2 being part of his character...

I swear my posts just get longer and longer...


summerssunset, I'm never going to convince you that Kenpachi hasn't attained shikai given the logic that Bleach has given us huh? lol ^-^ Oh well, like you said the author has officially announced that Kenpachi holds a released blade, and even if I still can't really wrap my mind around how the exception works, it's been proven to be an exception, so there's really no way around it. Oh, the mysteries of Bleach and Kuto Tite's mind.

Sorry for dragging this post for forever, and bringing more things that don't really add significantly to the "Kenpachi released zanpakuto discussion". But I just wanted to point out that Ichigo isn't really an exception to the rule in terms of bankai. He's an extraordinary case, but not an exception.

If you read Ch 127 P. 5 again where Yoruichi explains bankai, she shows that the only hard and fast rule of bankai is that "you need the materialization and submission of your soul cutter." She does say that "it usually takes 10 years or more to achieve it" but that isn't a rule, its the precedent. Ichigo does attain materialization and submission of Zangetsu through the doll that they use. And remember Urahara also used the doll to achieve bankai (Ch 132 P. 17). The doll is a shortcut, but it doesn't break the essential rule of materialization and submission.

Sigh... this post just got longer...