I think kenpachi very powerfull XD.

Neleh: Thats basically what I meant. An Un-named and sealed Zanpaku-to take on the same basic form. Of course, now that I think about it, there is an exeption or two. Such as Kisukes Binihime. It takes the form of a Cane.
And for the Bankai, it was explained that Kisuke created a way to achieve Bankai without the materializing it's form in the "RealWorld", in which is the way Ichigo achieved Bankai so early. Not to mention, to obtain Bankia via this method, one must make the Zanpaku-to materialization submit to the user. (it's a cheaters way of getting stronger.lol.)

Kenpachis zampaktou is permenantly released just like ichigos which means
that he doesnt have a shikai and never will, what that does mean however is that when he learns the name of his zampaktou the only thing he can do next is learn bankai!! judging from the fights so far kenpachi would be seen as a match for the 5th espada so if he got bankai (thinking realistily) he would probably be able to beat the 2nd/1st espada but still not come close to Aizen

Wat do you mean his Zanpactou is released but doesnt have Shikai? I f its released then it is in Shikai (true) form. Also you dnt have 2 know the name of your Zanpactou to release it. In my understanding so far from a couple of sources is that a Zanpactou appears in its released state wen you gain it. Then the Shinigami learn to seal that form into the form of an ordinary Katana. The command for instance, HOWL ZABIMARU is wat the Shinigami uses to remove that seal. About the released or not released matter of Kenpachi's Zanpactou, found this from this website I use to dl anime from.

"...Another major exception to just about all of the aforementioned rules, 11th Division Captain Zaraki Kenpachi, somehow failed to learn his sword's name. He ignored its living embodiment and preferred to use it simply as a tool, relying only on his own power. He never developed the control to seal his power, and thus also breaks the rule/tradition of keeping a Zanpakuto sword in a sealed form--his sword is always in its true form. Zaraki's immense personal strength not only made it possible for him to buck these rules, but also to rise to the rank of Captain. However, his neglect wasn't exactly good for the weapon, causing immense pain to its embodiment and damage to the sword itself."

hope this clarifies things

Sorry summerssunset, ive pretty much been away for three days, but im back.

1st quote...

Roognok

I dont have the time to lok up the other half of this about the explination

Well since you dont, dont bother giving us a 'half' argument. And in any case, whatever you would have brought to the table, it would still be wrong.

Roognok

Manga Chapter 109 Page 16 Ichigo: Damn, you still underestimate me…
Is that why you’re not releasing the seal on your soul cutter?
Manga Chapter 109 Page 17
Kenpachi: I didn’t put any seal on it.
Ichigo: What?
Kenpachi: my soul cutter has no name.
Ichigo: What are you thinking? My sword already wounded you..If you keep holding back, I’ll definatley beat you.
Kenpachi: This.. Is the true form of my soul cutter.

Oh, someone didnt quote the whole scene...? Let's go on further into the chapter as to why there is no seal, and justify it is in shikai form...

Kenpachi:The reason why there is no seal is because my spiritual pressure (reiatsu) is so strong that even the strongest seal (including himself) won't do any good.

So this quote made after the introduced quotes by Roognok justify that Kenpachi can no longer seal his sword into its first form. This quote also states that he has a zanpakutou in shikai form because LIKE Ichigo, he has a massive reiatsu and therefore cannot revert his zanpakutou into its first form.

Conclusion!? Shikai=yes Roognok=wrong

Roognok

It has been determined through THIS FORUM AS WELL AS OTHER SOURCES, YOU MUST RELEASE YOU'RE ZANPAKU-TO TO ACHIEVE SHIKAI.

Lol, it has also been determined through this forum as well as other sources (including official) that Kenpachi has shikai after a forced release due to his immense size in reiatsu.

You are the only one who has not second the thoughts of myself, the author or others in this community.

Roognok

THANK YOU, KENPACHI HAS NO SEAL THANK YOU

Yeh your right... which is why his zanpakutou is in shikai form... LOL you justified my case for me.

Roognok

get OFF MY CASE

Your case!? this is a forum... you think uve 'won' even though your arguments and information are all wrong. This is certainly nowhere near your case, it looks like its mine... hahaha.

summerssunset

I'm sorry but what are your sources? And you'd better tell Wikipedia & Tite Kubo to shut up since both say that Kenpachi's soul cutter is in released form!

Yes Roognok, tell the author off, coz the author himself cuts your argument down. There is no better justification than that of the author... if the author states Kenpachi has shikai, than the audience must believe it, and he presents the audience with evidence as facts for his justification.

Neleh

Just because Kenpachi's zanpakuto doesn't have a seal on it doesn't automatically mean that he has attained shikai.

Wrong, if there is no seal it means the character has a zanpakutou in shikai form. Your comment there is too general, not only can you not prove your point/case, there are only two characters in the Bleach world who have their zanpakutous permanently in shikai form, Kenpachi and Ichigo, so your point cant really be justified when only two chracters out of many have their zanpakutous in shikai form.

neleh

Question. Do they state that Kenpachi has a shikai or that his zanpakuto is always in a released form?... Even though they essentially mean the same thing...

Shikai would refer to 'always in released form', which justifies your second sentence that yes they both mean the same thing.

Ace07

I know Kenpachi having a released Zanpactou without knowing its name sounds strange/extraordinary but keep in mind he can take take on 2 or more captains using their Bankai without him having a bankai.

Yes Ace07 you are correct, he can take on two captains which now refers to my argument based on the 'levels of power' that each level (sealed, shikai, and bankai) can attain.

For each level after the sealed form the characters reiatsu increases. This is noted when Renji fights the 8th espada, when he couldnt use bankai in the room (Chapter 269 page 14) the 8th espada says to Renji:

8th Espada: "I told you this already didn't I? With shikai alone there is no way you can injure an espada..."

So this is one quote which suggests that whenever a zanpakutou increases in its level, so does the reiatsu of the character.

When Renji decides to use kidou infront of the 8th espada he says:
"It is true that the difference of strength of my shikai form and your current one is vast".

This quote also suggests an increase in power when the level of the zanpakutou increases.

So what's my point... do you think that Kenpachi can take on two captains; or kill the 5th espada with his zanpakutou in its sealed form!? No i dont think so, so it would be best to justify that his zanpkutou in shikai form.

Neleh

I personally would conclude that Kenpachi is an exception.

Best conclusion, Kenpachi was a 'one off' character, so saying that he has shikai without any real justification as to how he got it is all the justification we need. And he is also 'one off' because hes not gonna attain bankai either.

Roognok

After you register, comfirm registration and the like. Log in, and check the Bleach Manga Online (bubble) There, you can read to your hearts content of all 315 releases of the Manga.

Thanks for that but why would you take us to sites in which we need to register when we can read on other sites for free.

Ace07

All am saying is that Kenpachi might b an exception.

Nice... coz he is :)

summerssunset

Kenpachi with his high spiritual power just "forces" the sword to be in first release.

Nice justification, much more polite than mine, lol... thanks summerssunset.

Roognok

The seal form is also an unnamed Zanpaku-to. Kenpachi has never released his Zanpaku-to.

Wrong, as stated above not only is it impossible to take on two captains without shikai, it would be impossible to take on an espada without it either. And also stated above, he has shikai, you just missed the other quote which follows, and Kenpachi is a 'one off' character who has attained shikai.

Roognok

The seal form is also an unnamed Zanpaku-to.

Just this sentence is wrong, for those characters who have a shikai in the form of an ability for example Kuchiki Byakuya or Matsumoto Rangiku, they constantly keep their zanpakutou into a somewhat unsealed form to use their abilities.

Roognok

A sealed Zanpaku-to takes the form of an unnamed Zanpaku-to.

Yes, but since you said it yourself...

Roognok

Kenpachi: I didn’t put any seal on it.

You contradicted yourself by stating that Kenpachi has shikai. LOL

Summerssunset

And in the end, I think you should take a look outside the box. This is a whole world that has been created, and I doubt everything is working by too strict rules.

Well said, the belief that Kenpachi is a 'one off' character takes place right here.

neleh

summerssunset, I'm never going to convince you that Kenpachi hasn't attained shikai

well duh, coz Kenpachi has shikai...!?

neleh

it's been proven to be an exception

Yes... Kenpachi is 'one-off'...

Last quote:

Roognok

Neleh: Thats basically what I meant. An Un-named and sealed Zanpaku-to take on the same basic form.

Wrong in every possible way!

And you're back to your stupid little self again chinaman...This went on great without you and it doersnt need your stupid input. You even contradicted yourself above.
Chinaman wrote:
Wrong, as stated above not only is it impossible to take on two captains without shikai, it would be impossible to take on an espada without it either. And also stated above, he has shikai, you just missed the other quote which follows, and Kenpachi is a 'one off' character who has attained shikai.

Who said it was impossible first of all? And second of all.

And I didnt contradict myself on anything. That so-called quote of yours about me saying that Kenpachi saying he didnt put a sela on his zanpaku-to, was a QUOTE of the manga..NOT ME SAYING IT ******* idiot. If you're going to quote someone, make sure it's somehting THEY SAID, not a quote from something else. And yet again, you prove my case, you quote only to benift your want to argue for the sake of arguing..So stfu or quote shit correctly.

Roognok

This went on great without you

Yeh thats coz without me neleh started believeing the crap you went on about, so yeh, as i said before i really dont want people to believe the crap that you say.

Roognok

And I didnt contradict myself on anything. That so-called quote of yours about me saying that Kenpachi saying he didnt put a sela on his zanpaku-to, was a QUOTE of the manga..NOT ME SAYING IT ******* idiot.

Well if it was a quote from the manga, that means your implying that Kenpachi has shikai coz note the next quotes in which you do contradict yourself...

Allow me to quote and requote than...

Roognok

A sealed Zanpaku-to takes the form of an unnamed Zanpaku-to.

than you said...

Roognok

THANK YOU, KENPACHI HAS NO SEAL THANK YOU

You have just stated to everyone via a pure contradiction that Kenpachi has shikai because it (his zanpakutou) has no seal.

While i was gone you didnt answer my questions, here is a quote and re-quote for you:

chinaman91

If you cant deny this fact why is it that Kenpachi cannot have his zanpakutou in shikai form? The author states it? the other members state it? So why can't you?

You didnt answer this from page 10 of this thread...!?

One last quote and re-quote...

Roognok

It has been determined through THIS FORUM AS WELL AS OTHER SOURCES, YOU MUST RELEASE YOU'RE ZANPAKU-TO TO ACHIEVE SHIKAI.

chinaman91

Lol, it has also been determined through this forum as well as other sources (including official) that Kenpachi has shikai after a forced release due to his immense size in reiatsu.
You are the only one who has not second the thoughts of myself, the author or others in this community.

First of all, Chinaman91, about your comment towards Roognak that

Chinaman91

Yeh thats coz without me neleh started believeing the crap you went on about, so yeh, as i said before i really dont want people to believe the crap that you say.

I just want to say that Kenpachi not having attained shikai is a position that I've held for a while. It's not a position that Roognak necessarily persuaded me into. If you think that's foolish, there's nothing I can really do about that.

For me, whether or not Kenpachi has attained shikai hinges on the what you believe the definition of shikai is and how shikai itself it attained, outside of Kenpachi's case. My understanding is that shikai can only be obtained by knowing the name of your zanpakuto. I believe that my position is backed up by Yoruichi in Ch 127 P. 5 when she says that

"You need communication and synchronization with your soul cutter to achieve the initial release."

Notice that Yoruichi says "NEED" and not "one of the ways to achieve shikai is..."

My understanding also is that shikai is needed because it is a boost of power. The shinigami borrows power from their zanpakuto as they work together to defeat whoever.

If your definition of what shikai is and how it is obtained than the statement that "Kenpachi carries a released zanpakuto" might not bother you as much. My problem isn't accepting that Kenpachi is an exception, but that it seems that some people don't see WHY Kenpachi is such a contradiction in terms of the state of his zanpakuto. I feel that when trying to reason through Kenpachi's exception, the logic begins to break down. Ichigo is also an exceptional character, but his exceptions (all that I can think of right now) can be reasoned through logically. But this argument with Kenpachi's zanpakuto is giving me a hard time.

To me, the state of Kenpachi's zanpakuto is similar to when Ichigo first became a shinigami. No seal, no shikai but massive reiatsu and essentially using the zanpakuto as a weapon without acknowledging its existence.

Certainly Kenpachi is an exception, a 'one-off' character.

Using the logic of a 'one-of' character would be my explanation as to why he has shikai. However since we dont know how he got his zanpakutou, which he got while living in Rukongai, certainly that will have the answer. However i like many others believe that Kenpachi has shikai because of not only quotational and contextual reference, but from references from the author itself, a collection of primary and secondary sources. Surely you could not disagree with my argument from that point of view.

myself

And because both swords and sword's owners have human nature, I guess it's a bit to hard to put a stamp on it and say that's how it is.

Let's talk about the sword a little bit. You might remember Matsumoto and (insert here name of guy with the sword with 4 blades that always thinks of him as very beautiful) and their conversation with the swords. His sword apparently thinks it is the most beautiful thing in the world. And Matsumoto's is very stubborn. And think about Ichigo's sword, who is sad when it rains in Ichigo's inner world. I would describe these as all very human acts. And if the swords are human you can't say like in computer science for example, going to the next step is done only by incrementing this number. You can't just put a rule on human feelings. Or can you?

And now let's talk about shikai. Shikai is achieved by knowing the name of your sword. Why do you think that is? Do you really take that as literally as it sounds? I think this is more of a metaphor to say that, getting to the next level means getting to know the sword. And then it would release itself for you. But taking into consideration that swords are "human" you can't just say it would release itself for you as a direct result of "knowing" one another, but also as a result of an greater influence. And in the case of Kenpachi that greater influence is his monstrous reiatsu.

And neleh I don't understand why once you accept Kenpachi as an exception amd then you say he has no shikai. And I'm sorry but I just can't understand why it is so hard to believe that Kenpachi has shikai.

chinaman91

Sorry summerssunset, ive pretty much been away for three days, but im back.

Thanks for being back I was feeling all alone in the debate. :P

Sorry that I seem to be contradictory in what I say sometimes and how it comes out. I think it's because my brain has a hard time grasping everything that I know about Kenpachi and making it all fit together.

But starting off summerssunset you said that

summerssunset

Shikai is achieved by knowing the name of your sword. Why do you think that is? Do you really take that as literally as it sounds? I think this is more of a metaphor to say that, getting to the next level means getting to know the sword. And then it would release itself for you.

I do believe that the process of obtaining shiaki begins with the act of knowing your zanpakuto's name. But it's not as simple as just asking their name as they may choose to ignore you, Kenpachi is an example of this. By knowing your zanpakuto's name you show that you are able to communicate with your zanpakuto and have established some level of trust. But after that the shinigami needs to continue to get to know their sword or they will never be able to draw out the full strength of their sword. I see Ichigo as displaying this during his major battle with Kenpachi. He gets rebuked by Zangetsu and realizes that he had never really tried to understand Zangetsu and was just using his zanpakuto as a weapon instead of fighting with him. (Ch. 111 P. 8-11) When shinigami and zanpakuto trust each other that's more of the zanpakuto's power is released.

While I agree with the first part of your paragraph, I'm not sure I agree with all of your second part.

summerssunset

But taking into consideration that swords are "human" you can't just say it would release itself for you as a direct result of "knowing" one another, but also as a result of an greater influence. And in the case of Kenpachi that greater influence is his monstrous reiatsu.

I agree with the first part of this first sentence, hence the example of Ichigo and Zangetsu, Ichigo only gets more power after he shows that he can rely on Zangetsu. But I don't know if I agree that a zanpakuto will release itself because of a greater influence.

I remember you mentioning that Ichigo could hear Kenpachi's zanpakuto crying and stated that as Kenpachi being an influence on his sword. I believe that Kenpachi influences his zanpakuto, they are essentially fighting each other and his zanpakuto continues to take damage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see shikai the state in which shinigami and zanpakuto work together. A released zanpakuto provides more power to the shinigami. But Kenpachi does not work together with his zanpakuto. Instead he fights alone. Kenpachi also does not receive any power from his zanpakuto, rather all that reiatsu stems from himself.

Does that make sense? This makes sense to me because it comes from my brain, but hopefully it makes sense to you so you at least know where I'm coming from.

I think part of my confusion also comes from trying to understand what it would mean for Kenpachi to be in shikai. What does that actually mean? Since it doesn't mean that he knows the name of his zanpakuto or anything like that, what is the point of saying that Kenpachi is in shikai when he doesn't really get the normal benefits of shikai?

And another question, which I have no real answer to, do you consider Ichigo's zanpakuto before he attained shikai, when he and Rukia are still on earth, to be released?

neleh

I believe that Kenpachi influences his zanpakuto, they are essentially fighting each other and his zanpakuto continues to take damage.

Which may be the reason his zanpakutou is in shikai form. The zanpakutou and the character are supposed to be equal; work together. However this is not the case, Kenpachi's influence is too strong (physical aspect) and he doesnt embrace the persona of his zanpakutou (mental aspect). This makes the sword brittle and weak, which is reflected by the jagged edge of the katana. Its as if the sword has given up fighting Kenpachi. This may be one of the reasons that has lead to Kenpachi's zanpakutou in shikai form.

neleh

do you consider Ichigo's zanpakuto before he attained shikai, when he and Rukia are still on earth, to be released?

Interesting point, after reflecting on your comment it does seem like as if it were in a shikai form, particularly since the shikai form is a reflection of the overall size and shape of an individual's reiatsu as stated by Renji.

However as stated by Yoruichi, to attain bankai is to have the persona of the zanpakutou materialise into the 'real' world, whether that is SS or the real world. However shikai is the individual entering the persona's world, for Ichigo the world where skyscrapers were sideways.

That would mean to embrace the world of its persona... however Ichigo could not have achieved this with his zanpaktou in that stage, and whenever he had fluctuations in reiatsu, they were random and uncontrollable. However this theory would contrdict what i say about Kenpachi, however i say that Kenpachi has forced the shikai form because of his dominance over his zanpakutou's persona.

And another question, which I have no real answer to, do you consider Ichigo's zanpakuto before he attained shikai, when he and Rukia are still on earth, to be released?

If I remember properly that was a different sword. It looked different. And it was not the released form of Zangetsu... It was just a shinigami zanpakuto.

And here is a quote of wikipedia again

wikipedia

When Ichigo first becomes a Soul Reaper, his zanpakutō is simply an oversized version of a regular sealed zanpakutō, complete with an equally oversized sheath on his back. The large size is due to Ichigo's immense spiritual power, which he didn't know how to control. As a result, the sword itself was rather weak, since very little spiritual power was used to create it.

neleh

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see shikai the state in which shinigami and zanpakuto work together. A released zanpakuto provides more power to the shinigami. But Kenpachi does not work together with his zanpakuto.

Shikai is actualy released form of the sword. If this indeed this is helpful to the shinigami and that the sword releases itself to give shinigami more power that I do not deny. But I see Kenpachi's zanpakuto as a realeased sword, in it's form, but that due to lack of communication between them does not give him power. But giving power to the shinigami and being in released form (shikai) are in my opinion two different things. More power is a result of shikai, but that it is not a necessary consequence.

summerssunset

If I remember properly that was a different sword. It looked different. And it was not the released form of Zangetsu... It was just a shinigami zanpakuto.

Note also Neleh that this 'first' zanpakutou is basically an oversized image of Rukia's Sode no Shirayuki in its sealed form. This image is a reflection of the fact that Rukia transfered her powers to Ichigo.

chinaman91

Kenpachi's influence is too strong (physical aspect) and he doesnt embrace the persona of his zanpakutou (mental aspect). This makes the sword brittle and weak, which is reflected by the jagged edge of the katana. Its as if the sword has given up fighting Kenpachi.

Chinaman91, I agree that Kenpachi doesn't embrace the persona of his zanpakuto, but I don't think that makes his "sword brittle and weak" as you put it. Weaker than if he would "embrace the persona of his zanpakuto", but in the scope of things Kenpachi's sword is anything but brittle and weak. I believe a sword would be brittle and weak if one doesn't know how to solidify their reiatsu or if one doesn't concentrate and lets their guard down.

Ichigo is an example of this when training with Urahara and he hasn't obtained shikai and is running around trying not to get killed by Urahara, he says that Ichigo's "strength is only a little bit greater. Your power did not solidify and it only bloated up into the shape of a sword." (Ch 66 P. 9) Also in the battle against Kenpachi when Kenpachi slices through Zangetsu like butter because Ichigo relaxed his spiritual pressure and that's partially why Kenpachi can just slice through Zangetsu, that and he had been holding back before. (Ch 109 P.18-20)

My theory for the jagged edge of his zanpakuto does relate to his inability to communicate with his zanpakuto though. My theory is that because Kenpachi doesn't communicate with his zanpakuto, his zanpakuto can't fully regenerate and thus retains a jagged edge, but isn't an indicator of his zanpakuto's strength.

summerssunset

But giving power to the shinigami and being in released form (shikai) are in my opinion two different things. More power is a result of shikai, but that it is not a necessary consequence.

I guess that's where we differ, summerssunset, because I see giving power is an integral part of what it means to be in shikai.

summerssunset

If I remember properly that was a different sword. It looked different. And it was not the released form of Zangetsu... It was just a shinigami zanpakuto.

chinaman91

Note also Neleh that this 'first' zanpakutou is basically an oversized image of Rukia's Sode no Shirayuki in its sealed form. This image is a reflection of the fact that Rukia transfered her powers to Ichigo.

Thinking about Ichigo's first zanpakuto a little bit more, I think I've always thought of that zanpakuto as form 0 if you will (if you think of shikai as form 1 and bankai as form 2). I still believe that it was Zangetsu that he was holding and not "just a shinigami zanpakuto", since zanpakuto are tied heavily to one's soul. From that, the conclusion that I would draw is that Ichigo's first zanpakuto is either Zangetsu in form 0 or as chinaman91 suggested Sode no Shirayuki.

Concerning chinaman91 your comment about that first zanpakuto really being Rukia's Sode no Shirayuki, I guess that could work, but some of the illustrations from the manga really confuse me on this issue. Unless chinaman91 you have other sources you can pull from.

So here is my confusion. Even in sealed form all zanpakuto look a little different right? Even if it looks like a standard katana, many times the guard has a different design. If Ichigo's first zanpakuto is essentially Sode no Shirayuki then the guard pattern should be the same right? And lo-and-behold it is. (Compare Ch 1 P. 42 with Ch 1 P. 52, they look the same to me) But when Ichigo awakens his own shinigami powers, you would assume that the guard would look different because it's a different sword right? But it looks the same to me! (Refer to Ch 66 P. 6) Even if you assumed that Ichigo was wielding Zangetsu all along, why are the guard patterns the same as shown on Sode no Shirayukira before the power transfer? And if they are different swords, why would Kubo Tite draw the same patterns on two different swords when he does show different patterns in other character's guards? (Renji Ch. 52 P. 13, Byakuya Ch 52 P. 13-14)