neleh

My theory is that because Kenpachi doesn't communicate with his zanpakuto, his zanpakuto can't fully regenerate and thus retains a jagged edge, but isn't an indicator of his zanpakuto's strength.

Yeh sorry, thats what i meant. I typed too much. As stated the jagged edge cant regenerate but obviously is not an indicator of the zanpakutou's strength.

neleh

If Ichigo's first zanpakuto is essentially Sode no Shirayuki then the guard pattern should be the same right?

Correct, which is why Rukia was convicted as a criminal, coz she transfered her powers.

neleh

But when Ichigo awakens his own shinigami powers, you would assume that the guard would look different because it's a different sword right? But it looks the same to me!

Correct, he has awakened his powers, but has not got rid of hers. This is noted since he hs not had contact with zangetsu. When he does his own spirit power takes control, rids himself of Rukia's power and thus, his zanpakutou remains in shikai form.

chinaman91

Correct, he has awakened his powers, but has not got rid of hers. This is noted since he hs not had contact with zangetsu. When he does his own spirit power takes control, rids himself of Rukia's power and thus, his zanpakutou remains in shikai form.

Actually chinaman91, I believe at this point he doesn't have any trace of Rukia's shinigami powers in him. He has already awakened his own shinigami powers, but hasn't released Zangetsu yet.

If you remember before this scene, Urahara separates Ichigo from his body to begin training and comments that it is Ichigo's first time to separate from his body in a form other than as a shinigami.

He tells Ichigo that "in your current state, the origin of your spiritual power, Hakusai, and your booster, Saketsu, have been destroyed by Kuchiki Byakuya. That is to say, you are merely a ghost of a normal human being without any spiritual powers whatsoever." (Ch. 59 P. 14) (The emphasis is in the scanlation and not something I added.)

If Ichigo had retained Rukia's shinigami powers, then he would have separated as a shinigami, not as a normal human.

Also, Ichigo has contact with Zangetsu before the actual release. While he is still in the shattered shaft is when he mets Zangetsu for the first time, but still can't hear Zangetsu's name. It is here that Zangetsu affirms that Rukia's shinigami powers have indeed left Ichigo. Zangetsu tells Ichigo that

"In order to destroy Kuchiki Byakuya's 'Sword of Shinigami' the only way is to use the 'Power of Shinigami' that you've attained from Kuchiki Rukia!... Of course he only aimed for that when he attacked you. He thought that if he destroyed that power, everything will be resolved. He's too careless. He didn't discover that you have your own 'Powers of Shinigami'!" (Ch 63 P. 9-10)

Zangetsu states that Byakuya destroyed Rukia's power in Ichigo knowing that that would be the only way that Ichigo could fight him. But Ichigo has his own powers and this is when he finds Zangetsu in the box and pulls him out (Ch 63 P. 16-17). So Ichigo emerges out of the shattered shaft with Zangetsu (even though it's broken) in form 0 (Ch 64, P. 14 for close-up of broken sword). It is after that that Ichigo finally calls on Zangetsu and then has his forever released shikai. (Ch. 66 P. 19 and Ch. 67 P. 9)

With this, I believe that my confusion about Zangetsu and Sode no Shirayuki still stands.

Well in any case, shouldnt be we asking "Where is the big long sword he once had?", coz obviously he doesn't have it, and doesn't need it coz it wasn't his.

chinaman91

However shikai is the individual entering the persona's world, for Ichigo the world where skyscrapers were sideways.

And has Kenpachi entered his Zanpaku-to's world? Uh no, you just contradicted yourself.

Wikipedia

Depending upon the Soul Reaper's ability to communicate with and control their zanpakutō's spirit, a zanpakutō can manifest itself in two additional forms and revert to a sealed state. These two forms, known as shikai and bankai, are akin to "upgrades" for the zanpakutō, giving it abilities far beyond that of its simple use as a sword. Soul Reapers usually carry their zanpakutō in the sealed state and activate the released forms as necessary. with zanpakutō of the constant-release type, such as Ichigo Kurosaki and Kenpachi Zaraki,[6] are unable to seal their zanpakutō and therefore carry them in released form constantly.

Wikipedia

Soul Reapers who are unable to communicate with their zanpakutō wield a nameless version known as asauchi, meaning shallow cut.

And thus, yes, Wikipedia Contrdicts itself. Once again because Kenpachi CAN NOT communicate with his Zanpaku-to. As stated here.

(Each line is a diffrent bubble, all is said by Kenpachi.)
Chapter 114, Page 12
Hey
I know i'm quite a bit late in doing this, but.
Now can you...
Tell me...
Your
Name?

Chapter 114, Page 13
Che-
It doesn't work after all...

Wait wait, here's another Contradiction from Wiki itself too.

Wikipedia

On the other hand, it is much more difficult for a Soul Reaper to wield a zanpakutō that is not their own, though Kaname Tōsen is the only character in the series known to actually do such a thing

Didnt Ganju hold and use Hinatoro's Zanpakuto?....lmao

chinaman91

Well in any case, shouldnt be we asking "Where is the big long sword he once had?", coz obviously he doesn't have it, and doesn't need it coz it wasn't his.

Well, he doesn't have the big long sword because its already been released and as you've covered before Ichigo carries a constant-release type zanpakuto. And the big long sword was definitely his. Whether or not the zanpakuto he wielded while Rukia was still around was Sode no Shirayuki is up for debate (I personally think that he was wielding Zangetsu all along) but as I showed from my last post, after Ichigo emerged from the shattered shaft with his own shinigami powers, he still had the big long sword that he had when Rukia was around. (Ch. 64 P.14) If you reread my last post, by looking at the guard on the zapakuto's, I believe that Ichigo was wielding the same zanpakuto when Rukia was around and when he gained his own shinigami powers.

In short, Ichigo does still have the big long sword, but since Ichigo has attained shikai and has a constant-release type zanpakuto, we'll probably never see his zanpakuto in the big long sword form again.

Roognak, yes Wikipedia does contradict itself, but I don't think that's all Wikipedia's fault since the source material for Bleach is sometimes contradictory and people are just working off the source material. Hence Kenpachi not knowing his zanpakuto's name but having a released zanpakuto. Since it's official material and Kubo Tite hasn't said anything along the lines of "opps, misprint" then we just have to make do...

And Wikipedia's comment about using other people's zanpakuto may not necessarily be a contradiction. I think the person who wrote that just needs to clarify what they mean. If they just mean picking up someones zanpakuto and using it, then what you've stated about Ganju and Hanataro would contradict that. But if they mean using a zanpakuto in it's released state, like Kaname does, then I believe they would be correct. That person just needs to clarify themselves.

Do you guys think we need to start a new thread? Because at this point we're only barely discussing "Kenpachi's released zanpakuto"...

Roognok

And has Kenpachi entered his Zanpaku-to's world? Uh no, you just contradicted yourself.

Uh... no you dont have any evidence to suggest this either. He may have done so when he was a rogue in Rukongai, however since you just blow in without reading previous posts you dont know that others have been discussing other ways as to how Kenpachi gains shikai, coz obviously you're still the idiot you always were.

Roognok/Wikipedia

Soul Reapers who are unable to communicate with their zanpakutō wield a nameless version known as asauchi, meaning shallow cut.

Yeh that's correct, that is they dont have a zanpkutou materialise from within themselves. So that is referring to those who have not produced their own zanpakutou. However Kenpachi has produced his own, like all other death gods. You say he wields a nameless sword when Ichigo could here it scream, nice contradiction about something you believe is 'dead' when it is 'alive'.

Roognok and his crap thesis

(Each line is a diffrent bubble, all is said by Kenpachi.) Chapter 114, Page 12
Hey
I know i'm quite a bit late in doing this, but.
Now can you...
Tell me...
Your
Name?

Chapter 114, Page 13
Che-
It doesn't work after all...

Wait wait, here's another Contradiction from Wiki itself too

As stated before, oh right i snapped you before so you left LOL. Anyways as stated before Kenpachi may have forced the persona of his zanpakutou to a forced release both using his physical and mental aspects.

Wikipedia

On the other hand, it is much more difficult for a Soul Reaper to wield a zanpakutō that is not their own, though Kaname Tōsen is the only character in the series known to actually do such a thing

and then...

Roognok

Didnt Ganju hold and use Hinatoro's Zanpakuto?...lmao

1. That makes Ganju great and powerful character...
2. What the hell... introducing an unrelated topic!?

Thanks for your awesome argument...

neleh

Do you guys think we need to start a new thread? Because at this point we're only barely discussing "Kenpachi's released zanpakuto"...

Well theoretically this thread should have been closed ever since it was created because the thread is about 'Kenpachi's released zanpakutou', with people having the impression that his zanpakutou WILL achieve shikai when it already HAS achieved shikai.

chinaman91

Uh... no you dont have any evidence to suggest this either. He may have done so when he was a rogue in Rukongai, however since you just blow in without reading previous posts you dont know that others have been discussing other ways as to how Kenpachi gains shikai, coz obviously you're still the idiot you always were.

If he entered his Zanpaku-tos world, he would know it's name.. As quoted from the manga itself, he asks his sword it's name, and it doesn't reply. Therefore it can be implied, he does NOT know it's name. Hence, it's nameless. Does it have a persona,YES. Does Kenpachi know it's name and it's personality, uh NO.

chinaman91

Roognok
Didnt Ganju hold and use Hinatoro's Zanpakuto?...lmao



1. That makes Ganju great and powerful character...
2. What the hell... introducing an unrelated topic!?

Thanks for your awesome argument...

Go back and read idiot, it was related to my standpoint and not an introduction ofa new topic. It was to show that even Wikipedia CONTRADICTS itself. Hence why it's still in the same post AND i said

Myself

Wait wait, here's another Contradiction from Wiki itself too.

Before you go "trying" to cut me down as you say, read first or you make yourself olok like more of an idiot every day. And actually, again idiot, I have been reading and there's no proof as to how Kenpachi "supposedly" has forced his Zanpaku-to to release. It was merely users assumptions. Maybe you should go back and read again.

chinaman91

As stated before, oh right i snapped you before so you left LOL. Anyways as stated before Kenpachi may have forced the persona of his zanpakutou to a forced release both using his physical and mental aspects.

Hence the keyword there, "MAY". Show me proff that he did it, otherwise don't use it to support your arguemnet.


And as you said before (dont feel like going back to quote it) about nameless Zanpaku-tu being released. So you're saying that ALL shinigami start out with a Released Zanpaku-to. Even the lower class Shinigami. That's just obsurd and stupid, and just plain goes against every quote from the manga, users, and Wiki via the rules of the Bleach world regarding Zanpaku-to.

Roognok

Does it have a persona,YES. Does Kenpachi know it's name and it's personality, uh NO.

In any case, whether he knows the name or not he has shikai.

Roognok

Wikipedia CONTRADICTS itself.

That is why it is up to the responder/reader to cross reference each source. At least in my wikipedia quote, a published source stated that Kenpachi has shikai. Believing what wikipedia states at first glance... no way.

Roognok

I have been reading and there's no proof as to how Kenpachi "supposedly" has forced his Zanpaku-to to release.

Dickhead... suprisingly there is proof he has shikai, you can cut me down but i have all the cards. What do you have as your argument, a few quotes; but as brought up, author states he has shikai, and he was a one off character who could gain it anyway.

Roognok

Hence the keyword there, "MAY". Show me proff that he did it,

Show me proof that he didnt...

You're an idiot for asking for proof when i said 'may'...!?

Roognok

And as you said before (dont feel like going back to quote it) about nameless Zanpaku-tu being released. So you're saying that ALL shinigami start out with a Released Zanpaku-to.

What the bloody hell are you talking about!?

chinaman91

Roognok
Hence the keyword there, "MAY". Show me proff that he did it,



Show me proof that he didnt...

You're an idiot for asking for proof when i said 'may'...!?

partial quoting again?. This time it's goign to bite you in the ass...Go abck and read it and wheep. I said show me proof OR DON'T USE IT TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT. I dont need to show you proof that he didn't go into his Zanpaku-to's personas world, I'm not saying he did or didn't in the first place. So stop trying to put words in my mouth. You said he may, and in most peoples minds, that's the same as hypathetically speaking in which case (which even in the COURT OF LAW) hypathetically is the same as saying it.

Roognok

I said show me proof OR DON'T USE IT TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENT.

Dickhead, since you don't have proof rither you cant use my qoute as an argument against me...!?

LOL

S P O I L E R

You have all been trolled by Studio Pierrot and Dattebayo

I dont follow Assasin?

To Chinaman91 and Roognok,

You seriously need to calm down =/ I've been out for many days and now that I'm back, you guys are ready to bite each others heads off. Looky here, Zaraki doesn't know his zanpactou's name but that doesn't mean its not released. Remember that Zaraki has a S%^& load of spiritual power. Its like when Ichigo first had his soul cutter, he didnt have control over his spiritual powers. That is why it was so huge. Although, Zaraki's case is different................................ oh yeah, stop fighting. =)

And to AssasinXXX, WTF are you talkin about?

WTF am i talking about?
Nothing much except some Studio Pierrot which is not related to bleach at all and some weird dattebayo thingy that decided to...oh nevermind
carry on the discussion
facepalm.jpg

chinaman91

Yeh that's correct, that is they dont have a zanpkutou materialise from within themselves. So that is referring to those who have not produced their own zanpakutou. However Kenpachi has produced his own, like all other death gods. You say he wields a nameless sword when Ichigo could here it scream, nice contradiction about something you believe is 'dead' when it is 'alive'.

Pure contradiciton all in itself. You dont materialize the Zanpaku-to from within urself, You materialize the persona of it. Renji with Zabimaru and Ichigo with Zangetsu. Once you obtain Shinigami powers, you have a Zanpaku-to, which is materialized based off of ones Spiritual Power. It comes with the power. You can't have a corndog without both the breading and the hotdog, so to the same, you can't have Shinigami powers without the Zanpaku-to. No Zanpaku-to, No shinigami. And before you even say it, because I know your thinking it, Kenpachi had his Zanpaku-to BEFORE he became a Court Guard Captain, yes. But, as I have mentioned before that Shinigami is a class of souls, not just anyone with the powers. So you cant use Bleach to justify that only Shinigami have Zanpaku-to or by sheerly having Shinigami Powers gives you a Zanpaku-to. It other words or lamens terms, if you have strong Reiatsu, you "should" have a Zanpaku-to, not just the fact that you're a Shinigami, because a Shinigami is merely a "class" or status.