You know, I've had a rough week with some anime fans in general. Some of them have been here on animepaper, others on anime-planet, others in general just in games or, life itself, or whatever, and these experiences have finally gotten my motivation up to say what I want to say about the anime fan base.

Let me first begin by saying that in my experiences at multiple conventions, across multiple sites based for anime fans, and in talking with real anime fans in general, the average age that seems to be the industry's main source of profit seems to fall in between 14-17. Now, despite what others may argue, in particular the participants of anime-planet, in saying that most of the members registered there come out to the average age of 25, there is a difference between being older than 17 and acting older than 17, and this is never more prominent at anime conventions. In fact, there was an ironic and rather disturbing episode I saw at this years Tekko and, although I'd rather put it behind me, I will reflect on. You see when walking down the hall towards the very crappy artist alley that year I frequently saw an older woman, say late 20s to early 30s, weighing about 400 pounds at least, and in some scientifically contradictory state in which she can walk on her two feet still without having to waddle like a penguin from her massive weight, holding the hand of a 2-4 year old kid whom I can only presume to be her child. The obese woman was cos-playing none-the-less, which only helped to prove my more longer standing beliefs of the anime business and conventions in general in that some people should learn that they are in no physical way able to cos-play and are so bad that they should be legally bound by a court to be barred from doing such. Putting this argument aside, the mere sight of the woman arose some daunting questions about me, in which now I will explain:

Question 1: Why does this woman insist on cos-playing when it would be an inevitable bankrupting procedure to find enough material to make and sew the costume for her ocean of skin at her weight and still be able to pay for gas to get to the actual con?

Question 2: Why does this woman still enjoy, to the point of fanaticism (because anyone who cos-plays is inevitably fanatical about whatever they are cos-playing as) about a game whose targeted audience is that of one who have not received their high school diploma yet?

Question 3: In my life I've had some relationships with the opposite sex that have not worked out, and alas I am not bitter about them and do not much care for any significant other right now, but then again no one likes to walk down the road of life alone. Knowing this is a normally agreeable and accepted fact, how did this woman manage to find someone who didn't mind riding the waves of the Pacific Ocean to actually perform sexual intercourse with her.

Question 4: Since she does have a kid from sexual intercourse is it safe to assume that the more weight you have the less like birth control pills work (i.e. the effectiveness of birth control pills is inversely proportional to the person's own body fat/weight)?

Question 5: How drunk was he?

I was obviously very disturbed at the site, but it only goes to further prove the fanatical tunneled-vision of anime fans in general.

The next point is the popularity of some series. Main stream anime is normally made for TV series that get wildly popular, which is fine in an advertising stand-point, because it spreads anime's influence and market. However, mainstream anime essentially follow the same path, or at least the companies that make the anime that break into the mainstream do, and this path is normally one of trying to milk the cow for all it's worth and ride the boat as far as it can before sinking. The problem with this is that the boats don't sink, and they normally tend to be made out of rotten tree twigs in terms of storyline. I'm going to target Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, DeathNote, and DBZ. You see a lot of these anime that go mainstream tend to abandon the idea of storytelling in order to offer what is known as "filler episodes" between actual plot related-episodes. This draws the series out, which makes it more DVDs in the collection, which makes it cost more. Now normally an intelligent consumer would just avoid these because of the poor story and production ideals, but as we have established, the anime fan averages 14-17 years old in nature, and so this means that the minds of those who spend the most money on the industry, have not developed any advanced tastes at all. I'm sure mostly anyone can agree that if they look back at what they were doing 7-10 years ago, most of them would question how they were mentally stable. The age at which the human begins to have these feelings of regret and shame towards their past self is around the age of 25, the average age when the human brain stops developing physically. This means that 7 years earlier was age 18, roughly one year after the average age group, and that 10 years earlier is age 15, obviously in the 14-17 year old target range. This can only help explain why popular, yet absolutely terribly written stories like Bleach, and Naruto, and One Piece essentially become popular. This is also why companies like Capcom, Atari, and Square Enix survive off games that are repetitions of whatever former glory they achieved, such as the Devil May Cry series with it's new installment, DMC 4, and Final Fantasy with its latest atrocity, FF 12. The fan base that supports this kind of rubbish though essentially does not know that they essentially kill the anime industry because of the non-extinguishable resource. You see a large group of people (hard to say whether they are the majority or not) after the age of 25-30 begin to fall out with anime and video gaming, either because of time constraints or the lack of individual interest, which means that after the fanatical ages the anime fan, their numbers essentially dwindle. The ages of 14-17 though are always fanatical and never run out, since the human population essentially replaces itself, and thus elder anime fans essentially get kicked out into the streets. You see, anime companies that tend to care about the product they make and generally work towards the common goal of captivating the world over, not just the anime business, tends to get the work they do overlooked, and essentially selling underneath that of what it rightfully should. Good examples of these anime are The Cockpit, URDA, Kino's Journey, Ranma 1/2 (seasons 1 + 2), and the Big O. Now although some would argue the popularity of a series like Kino or Big O, they obviously do not sell like a Bleach or Gundam Seed / Seed Destiny (both of which were crap), and this essentially kills companies that tend to want to make a product that will revolutionize. This tells the industry that there is not point in making any anime worth watching if you can half-ass a storyline and still make more than what you would if you actually put a hard days work into it, and thus the under-age appeal kills the industry slowly. Another problem is the fact that the disposable income of a man of the age of 23 is by far not on the level of that of a 16 year old because the 16 year old can either a work without having to pay off any kind of monthly or timely installation of payments, and that the 16 year old can receive unlimited disposable funds from those who provide for him. Essentially this allows him to out-purchase the elder anime fans, and so the anime industry weakens off of the fact that they are now, more and more than ever, developing anime that do not fit the audience of those over 20. This means that veteran anime fans are essentially shadowed and filtered out of the business by its own means and so, the fanatical fans who don't know any better spoil the chances of anything good to come for the over-20 year old.

This brings me back to cos-playing, as a series that generally was decent, or so I have been told (jury is still out for me on it) is DeathNote, but then every lazy anime fan ruins the anime by thinking that just because the main character dresses in a white under-shirt with khakis and a belt, anyone can pull it off, and essentially you get a bunch of people walking around the convention like they just woke up for the day and are trying to get a cup of Joe and some bacon on their way out the door. This helps destroy the cos-playing industry in which, despite it being fanatical in nature is still respectable as an art form in nature.

The conclusion of all of this is that in the end the more adult and veteran anime fan is kicked to the curb by a society that cannot decipher anything or judge it on a complete and un-biased manner, thus leaving them to swallow anything offered to them and ask for more like they were all trying out for the lead roll of an Oliver Twist film. Normally this self-implosion of the industry would have happened in the 90s, but a golden age errupted like in any culture, and so the inevitable was delayed. After the last of the golden age in 2002, it was clear the anime industry was headed for a decline, with the now 14-17 age group that had the pleasure of living through the 90s essentially see the industry crumble and out grow them. Essentially the anime buisness is only going to improve when the number of elderly anime fans rise, which would allow the freedom of companies to target more specific and individual age groups, but as the over-whelming majority essentially more than quadruples that of the experienced anime fan, the industry can only fluctuate economically to axe its elder members, and so the interest level of people like me will begin to decline, despite other wishes for it not to do so.

Essentially this is me being fed up and burnt out about having to deal with the fanatical consumers of the anime industry trying to degreade my tastes based off disagreements between us. I'm posting this because I want to know if anyone else feels this way, and essentially hope to make this into a discussion not of the industry from a production standpoint, but from a consumer's standpoint on other consumers. The floor is now open for comments from anyone.

Dude first off I'm going to tell you that this post took FOREVER to read. I'm glad that you were able to put your thoughts down and everything. But man was it long.

First, while I agree with you that the mentality of the younger generations of anime fans are (I'll be very kind not not express my true feelings) "limited" there are exceptions. It all depends on personal tastes and the resources an individual has access. If the only anime you get exposed to is the POS stuff on TV of course your going to think its great. You haven't been exposed to anything better. Therefore there's nothing for you to compare and contrast to. Now you who has obviously had exposure to a wider range of resources are able to form broader opinions. But that's comparing apples and oranges. So a person can't/hasn't seen everything that's out there and is therefore forced to make a limited opinion. Does that make his opinion any less valid? He's still watching what's available to him and making the best judgments he can based on that knowledge. You do the same thing when you decide if you like/dislike an anime. You just have greater resources at your disposal. Think about it.

Secondly, you stink of elitism. You're saying that because of physical features/limitations a person should not try to express there liking of an anime? Should only physically fit people who are slim and slender be allowed to cosplay? No one's going around telling you that you should stop supporting "cartoons" are they? Why are you telling other anime fans not too? It killed me to refer to anime as "cartoons" but that what I've had people tell me who are not anime fans. And yet I don't tell them what they can and can't enjoy. Why are you? If a person wants to display ther enjoyment of something, where is the law forbidding it?

Third, what you perceive to be a "good" or "bad" anime is entirely of your own opinion. Others, who are veteran anime fans, do like many of the shows that you listed as lousy. Just because you think a product is terrible doesn't mean that it should or will be the case in the eyes of others. You may hate Naruto but I know many 20+ years old fans that still enjoy the show even if its racked with useless fillers. When I was 17 I had a very wide range of tastes for anime. I liked a lot of stuff. And most of it wasn't even the T.V. broadcast stuff that saturated the airwaves at all.

And while we're on the subject of products...Anime, despite popular fandom belief, is not a high art form in Japan. It is a product. Bottom line. Products need to sell and make money. If it doesn't make money its considered a failure. If Kino's Journey never made any money during its release in Japan it would have been chalked up as a failure and not as a success. Naruto and Bleach and One Piece are all successes because they rack in the cash. Spiral was canceled prematurely because it failed to produce revenue. Mobile Suit Gundam when it first aired was also canceled early. Burst Angel was also going to be canceled early but the American licenser paid the Japanese studio to finish it so that they will have a completed product to market and not some half-assed thing. You may think that anime should be ultra high quality but thats not how the people in Japan who are producing it see things. I know because I speak with them on a regular basis during conventions. If a studio can't make a profit then its finished. Never mind making mind blowing anime left and right. Sometimes the most truly provocative and enthralling anime doesn't turn a profit. When this happens it is considered a failure to the industry as a whole. And nobody wants to support a failing product when that have bills to pay and families to support.

I'm excepting some very harsh reprecussions at the least from the administrators for this post but I truly felt that while you're entitled to your opinions you have no right telling people that if they don't share similar beliefs, that their likes and dislikes are wrong. Saying that Naruto is bad because its been over saturated by the market, produced only for money, and that people who like it are foolish little kids with no, as you put it, "advanced tastes" is rude is say the least. I'm no better for responding out like this but there are ways to voice opinions without telling others they are inferior.

I fail to see how the anime industry making things for that fan base would kill it. seems to me that it would only help it thrive. also, good anime is still made, it just has to be sorted out of the bad. but hasn't it always been that way?

no i didn't read your whole post, i read bits and pieces, and i'm not going to bother. bashing a fan base isn't going to prove the so called ruining of an industry. perhaps in the eyes of a diehard, dogmatic purist, the offenses would be enough to make them be weary of trying to follow a series, or go to a convention, but to the rest of us, it's seen as a fan being just that, fanatical. having this kind of fan base only shows that the anime industry is stronger than ever. if your not happy with it, simply be more picky with what you watch, or stop watching it.

15 years ago, anime was something that most people in non-asian countries knew little about, especially america. now it is something that is well known and loved. when this happens to an industry, they experiment to find different niches within the genre. that is what your seeing. i personally hate things like pokeman, and digiman. i refuse to be a follower of naruto, and inuyahsa. just because i hate fads. but as you know, i love FF7, i love it for the story, and i liked it before it was faddish. if something is made simply to get more money from the suckers who can't get enough of it. that's called smart marketing. like it or not, it will continue to happen, and the masses in general will stream to it, because people follow other people. if you don't want to have a part of it, leave it be. there's no cause for you to get upset over something that really has no effect on you, and the you in turn, have no effect on. save yourself the ulcer, and let it go. just like what you like, and let others like what they like. it doesn't really matter in the end, what matters is that people of all walks of life are enjoying themselves.

My thoughts are incredibly incomplete so I will edit more in later after I sit down and open Microsoft Office.

First of all, I'm going to ignore the first part for it is plain stupid, pointless and shallow.

Spuds

The next point is the popularity of some series. Main stream anime is normally made for TV series that get wildly popular, which is fine in an advertising stand-point, because it spreads anime's influence and market. However, mainstream anime essentially follow the same path, or at least the companies that make the anime that break into the mainstream do, and this path is normally one of trying to milk the cow for all it's worth and ride the boat as far as it can before sinking. The problem with this is that the boats don't sink, and they normally tend to be made out of rotten tree twigs in terms of storyline. I'm going to target Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, DeathNote, and DBZ. You see a lot of these anime that go mainstream tend to abandon the idea of storytelling in order to offer what is known as "filler episodes" between actual plot related-episodes.

There's a show there that doesn't seem to fit for me, I'll point what all those shows have in common except one: Extremely high number of episodes, similar storyline where the main male character is "the chosen one", some kind of supernatural power that gives them the capability to do pretty much anything; can you guess what show is it?

spuds

I'm sure mostly anyone can agree that if they look back at what they were doing 7-10 years ago, most of them would question how they were mentally stable.

And that's probably what you'll do in a couple of years (and me too, don't take it as an offence).

A couple of points I don't understand:
First: Age and expectations.
I still don't understand what's the point of expecting of someone in between 14-17 the maturity of a 20 years old. Do you expect from a 5 year old to solve complex mathematical equations too? I told you this in the ShoutBox and you said at least you wanted respect from them (lets call them the 'newbies' to use your own words), because back in the 90's when a so called 'veteran' anime fan recommended you a show you would listen to them etc. Now, if you expect respect from someone you should at least be respectful to them, and going into a, lets say, Bleach thread and saying Bleach is crap, that the storyline sucks very bad and that everyone one who watches it is or acts as a kid who isn't old enough to have a driving license is not what I call respect. And if you haven't noticed everything moves faster this days, kids lose their virginity at an earlier age, they are practically born with cellphones and technology at the reach of their hands, they drink more alcohol, etc, so all that gives them some kind of false maturity that leads them to think that your opinion is not valuable, the same way you think their opinion isn't.

Second: Mainstream
If you don't like the anime with the overused story and the guy with a big sword saving the world from the evil guy, here's an advice: read manga, there are lots of good original mangas and they tend to focus more on the story, the plot and the characters. And there are good animes that don't go that way too, you just have to look harder. I usually separate things in 2 categories: either is Art or simply entertainment. Animes (and mangas) like Akira have a high artistic value to me, and other animes with lots of action just for the fun of is equal to watch a football match, which brings me to the next point.

Third: sport fans
The fanatism around the kind of animes you're pointing out is similar to what sport fans act like. I have a friend who loves Bleach and Naruto and doesn't care at all that they have little meaning behind the story and sometimes when I point that to him he has no better answer than: Ichigo banzai! or something like that that reminds me a lot of sports fans. Knowing that you're a sports fan I will not go deeper into this, but notice that it's not my intention to point this out because you're one, I just see some similarities.

Fourth: Anime relation
And this is my main point and the one that concerns me the most:
What the hell does this all have to do with anime? People are always territorial about their tastes beyond logics and they'll refuse a "higher opinion". If someone is shallow, that's it, their shallow, therefore they will not see what's under the surface of animes, but not animes alone, also music, movies, t.v. shows, judging other people (the same way you did in the first part of your post); the point is, they're are shallow. Don't generalize otherwise you're like those people that when some guy takes a gun to school and starts shooting they say: "You know, he played GTA, so that game is bad." Yeah, and maybe he also played Baseball. You're pointing out that anime fans are shallow when a lot of people are shallow, and I could go for hours talking about how empty today's music is compared to 200 years ago but it has nothing to do with music itself as a whole.

There's a solution to two of your problems (the overrated animes and fat women who cosplay): Look away, if you don't like to see it, just look away, but don't try to force other people to look away.

We've all seen it - fat North American ladies dressed up in tight Sailor Moon cosplay outfits, it sucks to see them, and many of us anime fans detest that image, but as much as you and hate it, there's not much we can do about it. Cosplay outfits are easier to obtain in Japan than they are in North America (at least the stores aren't as obvious) so cosplayers probably have a wider choice of costumes to wear. Plus, and I don't know why, but Japanese cosplayers seem to care more about the tiny details in their cosplay than North American cosplayers. There's no law regarding who is "fit" to cosplay, and there's nothing we can do but laugh at those who embarrass themselves.

A few of the animes you listed as cheap, mainstream animes are as what you say, not really deep animes with any good storyline, but there are a few mainstream ones that were good like DBZ. Now, before I go any further, I would like to assume that there's a difference between the North American dubbed version and the original, Japanese version, because, in my opinion, there's a pretty big gap in terms of how "good" DBZ is if you were to compare their American and Japanese counterparts. I'm not going to go into bashing the American version, all I'm going to say is the original version was better. Now, assuming you only watched the American version with English dubs, I can see why you hate it, as so do I. I haven't seen the Japanese version of Naruto, but have seen glimpses of it of the American version on YouTube and on television, and it doesn't seem like there's much "depth" in that anime either. Also keep in mind, there are animes that were originally meant for kids, and I think Naruto and the American version of DBZ and a few others are, so it's no surprise that the majority of the audience that tune into those animes are ages between 14-17. It's also hard to imagine how popular animes, as bad as they are, can cause the whole anime industry to slowly die down, as there're so many viewers, profit must be high.

I seriously don't think older audiences who watch anime are going to die out. With anime becoming more popular in North America, I wouldn't be surprised if the population of anime fans around the world increased, but this is going to take a while and it may not be blatantly obvious at first. Besides, it's people who are 25+ who make animes, much the same with video games. In fact, in high school, the amount of people interested in anime is so little compared to the amount of people who are interested in anime in my university. I sometimes walk by people's laptops and see them browsing through online manga scans, they sometimes talk about manga, I see students with anime pins on their backpack, there's even an anime club. For some reason that I don't even know, there're more people into anime in my university than my high school. And I'll tell you right now, I don't plan on stop watching anime for a very, VERY long time.

I know I infused some personal opinions into this post and I'm not going to be surprised if I gate flamed for saying the eng version of DBZ sucked, but go ahead and flame me if that floats you boat. The starter post was long btw. I personally am not worried about the anime industry as I don't think it's going to die any time soon. There're still good animes being produced. As a final note, I don't see how otakus, of any age, can kill the anime industry, especially of the younger group. Since they're of a younger group, you'd think they lack the intelligence to dissect which products are worth buying and which ones aren't. Thus, they spend the money on buying anime-related merchandise. We've all been there, like when you were 8 years old and you wanted a remote control car or Lego set so badly, then you look back and say "damned, what a waste of cash, I could've used that money to pay for a tank of gas today." I do look back at my life and say to myself, "what a nut I was back then." Heck, I can say that exact phrase right now to myself back two years ago, but then again I know I'm going to say that 10 years down the road to my present self.

longbow

A few of the animes you listed as cheap, mainstream animes are as what you say, not really deep animes with any good storyline, but there are a few mainstream ones that were good like DBZ. Now, before I go any further, I would like to assume that there's a difference between the North American dubbed version and the original, Japanese version, because, in my opinion, there's a pretty big gap in terms of how "good" DBZ is if you were to compare their American and Japanese counterparts. I'm not going to go into bashing the American version, all I'm going to say is the original version was better. Now, assuming you only watched the American version with English dubs, I can see why you hate it, as so do I. I haven't seen the Japanese version of Naruto, but have seen glimpses of it of the American version on YouTube and on television, and it doesn't seem like there's much "depth" in that anime either. Also keep in mind, there are animes that were originally meant for kids, and I think Naruto and the American version of DBZ and a few others are, so it's no surprise that the majority of the audience that tune into those animes are ages between 14-17. It's also hard to imagine how popular animes, as bad as they are, can cause the whole anime industry to slowly die down, as there're so many viewers, profit must be high.

Hey, a question: just curious to which version of the American dub of Dragonball Z you were referring to. The mid-90's version or the 2003 version? Yes, there is a difference. The mid-90's version was heavily edited to meet both broadcasting and licensing contract agreements. This is the version that most people seem to have problems with. Now the 2003 re-dub was completely uncensored and uncut. I have yet to hear of an complaints regarding the re-dub of DBZ. Both versions were produced by America thereby making both versions the "American version" (dubbed in Canada however). I only bring this up because you speak as if there is only one American version of Dragonball Z which is not the case.

Oh and the answer your question of how the anime industry is hurting: go here.
http://www.animepaper.net/forums/AnimePaper/52338/9/
I don't want to be talking about something that is off topic for this thread. It will be the third entry down. In short though, even if all the popular animes ban together they can not generate enough revenue to make up for lost sales of other anime projects and that is how the industry is hurting as a whole. Individual projects may be thriving so much your head will spin off but those are just that: individual projects. They can not be used to accurately gauge the status of the industry as a whole. You have to study to industry to see how well the industry is doing, not one or two successful shows.

"Hey, a question: just curious to which version of the American dub of Dragonball Z you were referring to. The mid-90's version or the 2003 version? Yes, there is a difference. The mid-90's version was heavily edited to meet both broadcasting and licensing contract agreements. This is the version that most people seem to have problems with. Now the 2003 re-dub was completely uncensored and uncut. I have yet to hear of an complaints regarding the re-dub of DBZ. Both versions were produced by America thereby making both versions the "American version" (dubbed in Canada however). I only bring this up because you speak as if there is only one American version of Dragonball Z which is not the case."

Yes, the ones I watched were dubbed by Ocean Dubs and Funimation if I'm right, I'm surprised they re-dubbed it and am glad they did because the original english dubs were just terrible. Now that you mention a new re-dub I'm curious to check this out, because after watching their first attempt at dubbing I never knew they'd try to do it again since it's such a huge series.

Well now the problem is the new Dragonball Z live action movie coming out next year. There was an image in this week's Shonen Jump magazine with Justin Chatwin in Goku's hairstyle which almost made me choke on my coffee.

Even with the re-dub, I'll still probably prefer the original, since, I've seen some pretty well-dubbed animes recently, but they just never caught up to their Japanese counterparts.

I just wanted you to know that making fun of people for whatever reason isn't going to gain you much fans or respect. That woman has just as much right to cosplay as anyone else. You might not think she looks pretty, but it's not about who is the most prettiest in the mainstream's eyes, it's about having fun.

As for those who like Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece; I'd think that those are the people who actually contribute to the anime industry the most, as they have huge followings and are more likely to spend their money on it. I'm sorry but just because you prefer older anime, doesn't mean all anime nowadays are horrible. Maybe you don't like Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece, but lots of others do.

Perhaps maybe someday you will grow up and learn that you aren't perfect and don't have any right to say who should or shouldn't be an anime fan or what anime they should like.

HappyKari

Perhaps maybe someday you will grow up and learn that you aren't perfect and don't have any right to say who should or shouldn't be an anime fan or what anime they should like.

Those aren't my points of argument/discussion here. Go back and re-read the post and maybe you'll find them. Also, I know I'm not perfect, nor do I try to be.

Happy

That woman has just as much right to cosplay as anyone else.

When she harms my sight and provides me with an image I do not want to see and repulses me, then no she doesn't.

I'm in the process of writing a thought extension guys, give me a few days. I just had to defend myself against an argument that contributes practically nothing to the discussion.